2016 Election Thread Part Deux

#3,080
#3,080
AM64 said:
You limit the keys to a select group of friends and family?
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My house isn't a country, so you're entire argument about locking my doors is absurd. What are illegals going to take from us? Because I only lock my doors so people don't steal ****
 
#3,082
#3,082
Vol8188 said:
My house isn't a country, so you're entire argument about locking my doors is absurd. What are illegals going to take from us? Because I only lock my doors so people don't steal ****
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Yep, Hog was right; you basically don't/won't understand the argument. Any entity has a legal right to protect itself and anything of value from outsiders.
 
#3,083
#3,083
AM64 said:
Yep, Hog was right; you basically don't/won't understand the argument. Any entity has a legal right to protect itself and anything of value from outsiders.
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What are we protecting ourselves from? Cheap labor? And I've never argued we didn't have the right. I'm arguing that we shouldn't do it
 
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#3,084
#3,084
Vol8188 said:
What are we protecting ourselves from? Cheap labor? And I've never argued we didn't have the right. I'm arguing that we shouldn't do it
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Example: the local school system is looking at $500K to expand the system for students for whom English is a second language. This is a direct offshoot of an illegal alien population. There are plenty of other services that go to illegals - medical, police protection, etc. That's tax money that should never have been collected or should have directly benefited citizens. It's a drop in the bucket, but it's just the increase in services to a program already in place - taxes that are diverted from the intended purpose. Generally diversion of funds is considered embezzlement; the illegals may not in fact be the embezzlers, but they benefit, and taxpayers are the victims.
 
#3,085
#3,085
AM64 said:
Example: the local school system is looking at $500K to expand the system for students for whom English is a second language. This is a direct offshoot of an illegal alien population. There are plenty of other services that go to illegals - medical, police protection, etc. That's tax money that should never have been collected or should have directly benefited citizens. It's a drop in the bucket, but it's just the increase in services to a program already in place - taxes that are diverted from the intended purpose. Generally diversion of funds is considered embezzlement; the illegals may not in fact be the embezzlers, but they benefit, and taxpayers are the victims.
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Most local governments are funded from property taxes and sales taxes. So when you say "the taxpayers are victims" your stance couldn't we more off. The illegals are the tax payers.
 
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#3,086
#3,086
AM64 said:
Example: the local school system is looking at $500K to expand the system for students for whom English is a second language. This is a direct offshoot of an illegal alien population. There are plenty of other services that go to illegals - medical, police protection, etc. That's tax money that should never have been collected or should have directly benefited citizens. It's a drop in the bucket, but it's just the increase in services to a program already in place - taxes that are diverted from the intended purpose. Generally diversion of funds is considered embezzlement; the illegals may not in fact be the embezzlers, but they benefit, and taxpayers are the victims.
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Tax payers and general greed is the reason why illegal immigrants are and will continued to be welcomed. They are a form of cheap labor for small projects and corporations. If you really think any politician in dc, including Trump, is going to follow through with a complete export and "huge wall" build, then you're fooling yourself.

The same reason we continue to buy products from China. It's cheaper.

The same reason we go get ****ty fast food and shop at Walmart. It's cheaper.

No one took jobs from us. We forced ourselves out of jobs by continuing to support these such things. We demanded cheaper goods, prices, services, and labor. The market just delivered.
 
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#3,087
#3,087
TNsnyper20 said:
Tax payers and general greed is the reason why illegal immigrants are and will continued to be welcomed. They are a form of cheap labor for small projects and corporations. If you really think any politician in dc, including Trump, is going to follow through with a complete export and "huge wall" build, then you're fooling yourself.

The same reason we continue to buy products from China. It's cheaper.

The same reason we go get ****ty fast food and shop at Walmart. It's cheaper.

No one took jobs from us. We forced ourselves out of jobs by continuing to support these such things. We demanded cheaper goods, prices, services, and labor. The market just delivered.
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And society as a hole benefits from cheap labor. As far as jobs lost, everyone as a whole benefits. Tarrifs are essentially a form of welfare. Ensuring jobs for some, at the expense of everyone else. The people losing jobs shouldn't blame immigrants. They should blame minimum wage laws.
 
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#3,088
#3,088
TNsnyper20 said:
Tax payers and general greed is the reason why illegal immigrants are and will continued to be welcomed. They are a form of cheap labor for small projects and corporations. If you really think any politician in dc, including Trump, is going to follow through with a complete export and "huge wall" build, then you're fooling yourself.

The same reason we continue to buy products from China. It's cheaper.

The same reason we go get ****ty fast food and shop at Walmart. It's cheaper.

No one took jobs from us. We forced ourselves out of jobs by continuing to support these such things. We demanded cheaper goods, prices, services, and labor. The market just delivered.
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Pretty much this.
 
#3,089
#3,089
Vol8188 said:
And society as a hole benefits from cheap labor.
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I agree to a point. However, there are instances that cheap prices, labor, and services create cheap results.

My current company decided that a strategic partner could do the same work as our general employees at a fraction of the cost. This has caused real customer issues that we've had to pay our internal employees to clean up. So now we are paying 1.5 times more than what we would have if we would stuck with just us doing it and not trying to outsource it. Not to mention the bitter taste in our customers mouths. Personally I'd like to give a swift kick to the nuts of the moron who pushed this idea through.

Sometimes cheaper doesn't benefit society.
 
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#3,090
#3,090
Vol8188 said:
Most local governments are funded from property taxes and sales taxes. So when you say "the taxpayers are victims" your stance couldn't we more off. The illegals are the tax payers.
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The first chart (red) is Title I Grants for Disadvantaged Children. The second is Federal Spending Under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. The bulk may be locally derived, and in TN we probably do better since it's hard to escape property and sales tax. Nevertheless, plenty of revenue does come from federal income taxes, and in other locales state and local income taxes. Indigent medical costs are covered by increasing rates for everyone else. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, there is a significant cost to citizens. In 2013 the estimated cost of the illegal alien population in federal, state, and local funds was $113 billion.
 
#3,091
#3,091
AM64 said:
View attachment 110555View attachment 110556

The first chart (red) is Title I Grants for Disadvantaged Children. The second is Federal Spending Under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. The bulk may be locally derived, and in TN we probably do better since it's hard to escape property and sales tax. Nevertheless, plenty of revenue does come from federal income taxes, and in other locales state and local income taxes. Indigent medical costs are covered by increasing rates for everyone else. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, there is a significant cost to citizens. In 2013 the estimated cost of the illegal alien population in federal, state, and local funds was $113 billion.
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You're trying to increase the scope of government (increased border security) to fix an issue with the scope of government (department of education funding).

The problem isn't illegal immigrants. The problem is the department of education. Abolish it.
 
#3,092
#3,092
marcusluvsvols said:
No they don't . I work with 300 of them. Three hundred of them. They get 1099s. They do not pay a cent of taxes.none. so the carpenters on my job that make 15 dollars an hour and work 55 hours a week actually take home more than I do ...because I pay 300 dollars a week in taxes. Don't speak about what you don't know. Right here In NC where you live. The roofers on my job...work for cash. Don't speak a word of english. I am bilingual. I speak Spanish. They don't pay a penny in taxes. 30 dollars a square cash. What about all the ones that hang out at home Depot and lowes? They work for cash paid daily...not a cent in taxes.

Have you informed the Homeland Security/ INS folks about these illegal aliens being illegally hired by this construction company?

If not, why not?

If so, what did they say?
I just gave you a bunch of real world examples that I see every day. People i actually know.construction workers .
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Have you informed the Homeland Security/ INS folks about these illegal aliens being illegally hired by this construction company?

If not, why not?

If so, what did they say?
 
#3,093
#3,093
Danl said:
Have you informed the Homeland Security/ INS folks about these illegal aliens being illegally hired by this construction company?

If not, why not?

If so, what did they say?
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I'm curious as to how they're all being paid under the table, but he's being taxed.
 
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#3,094
#3,094
Vol8188 said:
You're trying to increase the scope of government (increased border security) to fix an issue with the scope of government (department of education funding).

The problem isn't illegal immigrants. The problem is the department of education. Abolish it.
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We can certainly agree on abolishing the Dept of Ed. I've got no problem with mining the border - self correcting error.

The people who come here illegally looking for a better life need to fix their own countries. And, yes, I do recognize the difficulty and improbability in doing that.

Border security isn't simply to limit illegal aliens. Other issues include drugs smuggled across and potentially weapons and people to support terrorism. We shouldn't be looking at a wall, fence, or whatever as simply an impediment to people wanting to bypass legal immigration - there are other reasons. What will eventually get everyone's attention is when an epidemic of some type crosses with a flood of illegals - you can't stop and prevent what you don't see.
 
#3,095
#3,095
AM64 said:
We can certainly agree on abolishing the Dept of Ed. I've got no problem with mining the border - self correcting error.

The people who come here illegally looking for a better life need to fix their own countries. And, yes, I do recognize the difficulty and improbability in doing that.

Border security isn't simply to limit illegal aliens. Other issues include drugs smuggled across and potentially weapons and people to support terrorism. We shouldn't be looking at a wall, fence, or whatever as simply an impediment to people wanting to bypass legal immigration - there are other reasons. What will eventually get everyone's attention is when an epidemic of some type crosses with a flood of illegals - you can't stop and prevent what you don't see.
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Once again your issue isn't with illegals. It's with government. They wouldn't be providing us with guns and drugs if our country wasn't regulating guns and drugs. Eliminate the job killing regulations
 
#3,096
#3,096
Vol8188 said:
And society as a hole benefits from cheap labor. As far as jobs lost, everyone as a whole benefits. Tarrifs are essentially a form of welfare. Ensuring jobs for some, at the expense of everyone else. The people losing jobs shouldn't blame immigrants. They should blame minimum wage laws.
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I agree with you about minimum wage laws, but don't you think that for the argument to be valid you have to accept marcusluvsvols comment regarding under the table payment to illegals. If you don't directly hire some labor, but simply subcontract a project, why couldn't you pay taxes for one segment but not another because they were subcontracted? Sure there are illegalities, but if you don't ask they won't tell - ignorance is bliss. Do you think most companies get into detail about wages, benefits, etc paid to subcontracted custodial services, for example?
 
#3,097
#3,097
Vol8188 said:
Once again your issue isn't with illegals. It's with government. They wouldn't be providing us with guns and drugs if our country wasn't regulating guns and drugs. Eliminate the job killing regulations
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Would you say the same for all the welfare programs? That if we force people to be in the workforce or starve it would limit jobs for illegals - except for that little minimum wage problem?
 
#3,098
#3,098
AM64 said:
I agree with you about minimum wage laws, but don't you think that for the argument to be valid you have to accept marcusluvsvols comment regarding under the table payment to illegals. If you don't directly hire some labor, but simply subcontract a project, why couldn't you pay taxes for one segment but not another because they were subcontracted? Sure there are illegalities, but if you don't ask they won't tell - ignorance is bliss. Do you think most companies get into detail about wages, benefits, etc paid to subcontracted custodial services, for example?
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If he is accepting a less beneficial form of payment than they are, that is his issue. Each person has a right to negotiate their own deals.
 
#3,099
#3,099
AM64 said:
Would you say the same for all the welfare programs? That if we force people to be in the workforce or starve it would limit jobs for illegals - except for that little minimum wage problem?
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I'm not opposed to eliminating welfare.
 
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