Alexis Johnson arrested (merged/updated 4/21)

[Theshag]

That is presuming guilt until proven innocent because you can't know until they have been tried and the legal system has decided guilt or innocence. Now if you want to talk about promiscuous and to some degree consensual sex during an alcohol or drug induced fog, then you have to expel both the accuser and the accused; and that would probably lead to even worse accusations against the school.

You and the other poster who quoted me seem to think there is either jump out of the bushes rape or false accusations by (generally) women after the fact. That just isn't right. There is a ton of gray area when it comes to sex crimes, and I think what's coming out is that schools are not doing a great job handling that ambiguity.

But it's not right to say that the criminal justice system must run its course before a school takes action. With giving my opinion on anyone's guilt, AJ's case has still not been resolved, and he isn't sitting in jail. Schools have every right to act quickly in just such a case. The same way you would get expelled for possession of drugs without a criminal conviction. Should the school have better procedures to protect the accused? Sure, absolutely. But expelling a student isn't sending them to jail and a school isn't a court.

 

[82_VOL_83]

You and the other poster who quoted me seem to think there is either jump out of the bushes rape or false accusations by (generally) women after the fact. That just isn't right. There is a ton of gray area when it comes to sex crimes, and I think what's coming out is that schools are not doing a great job handling that ambiguity.

But it's not right to say that the criminal justice system must run its course before a school takes action. With giving my opinion on anyone's guilt, AJ's case has still not been resolved, and he isn't sitting in jail. Schools have every right to act quickly in just such a case. The same way you would get expelled for possession of drugs without a criminal conviction if someone said that they had seen you with them even though they had gotten high with you several times in the past. Should the school have better procedures to protect the accused? Sure, absolutely. But expelling a student isn't sending them to jail and a school isn't a court.

Fify

Basically, your analogy is apples to oranges and still upholds the school "knowing without a doubt" that a rape occurred just because an accusation was made.

 

[chargervol]

You and the other poster who quoted me seem to think there is either jump out of the bushes rape or false accusations by (generally) women after the fact. That just isn't right. There is a ton of gray area when it comes to sex crimes, and I think what's coming out is that schools are not doing a great job handling that ambiguity.

But it's not right to say that the criminal justice system must run its course before a school takes action. With giving my opinion on anyone's guilt, AJ's case has still not been resolved, and he isn't sitting in jail. Schools have every right to act quickly in just such a case. The same way you would get expelled for possession of drugs without a criminal conviction. Should the school have better procedures to protect the accused? Sure, absolutely. But expelling a student isn't sending them to jail and a school isn't a court.

The obvious flaw in your example:
You get expelled for possession of drugs, not for another person saying you had drugs.

Not my debate but there is just really no comparison with that example. Sorry to interrupt and carry on :hi:

 

[508mikey]

Johnson imo

 

[Theshag]

The obvious flaw in your example:
You get expelled for possession of drugs, not for another person saying you had drugs.

Not my debate but there is just really no comparison with that example. Sorry to interrupt and carry on :hi:

Innocent until proven guilty. There are a million ways to create a reasonable doubt in a real criminal trial, including for possession, but schools don't follow those rules, nor should they. You can get punished when someone calls you a cheater, or claims you stole something, so long as they are credible, and it's the school's job to figure that out, not the criminal justice system. Just because you have some problem with women reporting rape doesn't change that.

Being in college isn't a right, schools aren't courts. That's all I'm saying.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Innocent until proven guilty. There are a million ways to create a reasonable doubt in a real criminal trial, including for possession, but schools don't follow those rules, nor should they. You can get punished when someone calls you a cheater, or claims you stole something, so long as they are credible, and it's the school's job to figure that out, not the criminal justice system. Just because you have some problem with women reporting rape doesn't change that.

Being in college isn't a right, schools aren't courts. That's all I'm saying.

Then you aren't saying it very well or you just enjoy contradicting yourself.

 

[chargervol]

Innocent until proven guilty. There are a million ways to create a reasonable doubt in a real criminal trial, including for possession, but schools don't follow those rules, nor should they. You can get punished when someone calls you a cheater, or claims you stole something, so long as they are credible, and it's the school's job to figure that out, not the criminal justice system. Just because you have some problem with women reporting rape doesn't change that.

Being in college isn't a right, schools aren't courts. That's all I'm saying.

I'll need clarification before going much further.
By "you" did you mean me?
I'm ok with just completely disagreeing with the rest of your post.

 

[Theshag]

Then you aren't saying it very well or you just enjoy contradicting yourself.

I'm not saying anything complicated. Schools have a right to police who attends, but they aren't courts, they don't have to give you the protection that you would get if you were convicted of some crime. You can complain all you want, but it's the school's job to come up with standards, and they shouldn't have to wait for the criminal system to run its course.

Again, look at AJ, he's accused of aggravated rape, in the criminal system, and isn't in jail. Should UT have to let him go to school because it hurts TN fans collective feelings that he isn't out making tackles?

You can argue that UT, or any school, should do a better job protecting the accused, or should require more physical evidence, but that doesnt mean they have to. Even if the world was as full of coniving women as you and others seem to think it is.

 

[chargervol]

I'm not saying anything complicated. Schools have a right to police who attends, but they aren't courts, they don't have to give you the protection that you would get if you were convicted of some crime. You can complain all you want, but it's the school's job to come up with standards, and they shouldn't have to wait for the criminal system to run its course.

Again, look at AJ, he's accused of aggravated rape, in the criminal system, and isn't in jail. Should UT have to let him go to school because it hurts TN fans collective feelings that he isn't out making tackles?

You can argue that UT, or any school, should do a better job protecting the accused, or should require more physical evidence, but that doesnt mean they have to. Even if the world was as full of coniving women as you and others seem to think it is.

Not being an ass, honest question - You do know that AJ attended and graduated right? And that the school is being sued (in part) for making their own decision as you suggested?

 

[butchna]

I'm not saying anything complicated. Schools have a right to police who attends, but they aren't courts, they don't have to give you the protection that you would get if you were convicted of some crime. You can complain all you want, but it's the school's job to come up with standards, and they shouldn't have to wait for the criminal system to run its course.

Again, look at AJ, he's accused of aggravated rape, in the criminal system, and isn't in jail. Should UT have to let him go to school because it hurts TN fans collective feelings that he isn't out making tackles?

You can argue that UT, or any school, should do a better job protecting the accused, or should require more physical evidence, but that doesnt mean they have to. Even if the world was as full of coniving women as you and others seem to think it is.

He did go to school! Graduated even! Took a pic with Cheek.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I think the last two posts about cover it...

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

The obvious flaw in your example:
You get expelled for possession of drugs, not for another person saying you had drugs.

Not my debate but there is just really no comparison with that example. Sorry to interrupt and carry on :hi:

FTR, simple possession does not get most students expelled. If they have enough that it's obvious they're selling, yeah. But now most kids who get caught with a little weed just have a disciplinary meeting and maybe have to attend a workshop of some kind at the university about the risks of drug use. And that's only if they're caught on campus.

If a kid gets busted for simple possession at his apartment in the Fort, then nothing will come of it at school most likely.

 

[Theshag]

Not being an ass, honest question - You do know that AJ attended and graduated right? And that the school is being sued (in part) for making their own decision as you suggested?

I honestly didn't. I generally don't follow the off season very closely and I wasn't sure what happened to AJ following the indictment, except that from a quick google search he hasn't been convicted and isn't in jail.

I suppose it's worth mentioning here that I don't like the lawsuit either. Schools are being put in an impossible place between people that think they have to wait until the criminal system runs its course and those who claim that ANY procedure doesn't go far enough to either punish the accused or protect the accuser.

If a school is trying it's best, which from everything I've read, UT is, it shouldnt be subject to lawsuits by those who only see the biggest pocket.

 

[82_VOL_83]

i honestly didn't. I generally don't follow the off season very closely and i wasn't sure what happened to aj following the indictment, except that from a quick google search he hasn't been convicted and isn't in jail.

I suppose it's worth mentioning here that i don't like the lawsuit either. Schools are being put in an impossible place between people that think they have to wait until the criminal system runs its course and those who claim that any procedure doesn't go far enough to either punish the accused or protect the accuser.

If a school is trying it's best, which from everything i've read, ut is, it shouldnt be subject to lawsuits by those who only see the biggest pocket.

smfh.

 

[82_VOL_83]

FTR, simple possession does not get most students expelled. If they have enough that it's obvious they're selling, yeah. But now most kids who get caught with a little weed just have a disciplinary meeting and maybe have to attend a workshop of some kind at the university about the risks of drug use. And that's only if they're caught on campus.

If a kid gets busted for simple possession at his apartment in the Fort, then nothing will come of it at school most likely.

Did you just feel a breeze blow through your hair and a faint buzz in your ears?

 

[chargervol]

FTR, simple possession does not get most students expelled. If they have enough that it's obvious they're selling, yeah. But now most kids who get caught with a little weed just have a disciplinary meeting and maybe have to attend a workshop of some kind at the university about the risks of drug use. And that's only if they're caught on campus.

If a kid gets busted for simple possession at his apartment in the Fort, then nothing will come of it at school most likely.

No argument. He was talking about those that get expelled which I assumed "intent" or equivalent, by default.

 

[bigdaddy]

Think this will be resolved by August?

The lawsuit won't be over for around 3 years

 

[BaldBiker]

The lawsuit won't be over for around 3 years

But there's roughly 212 days of opportunity for it to be over by August of that year. Just want to clarify that. It could in fact be over by August....of some year.

 

[AM64]

You and the other poster who quoted me seem to think there is either jump out of the bushes rape or false accusations by (generally) women after the fact. That just isn't right. There is a ton of gray area when it comes to sex crimes, and I think what's coming out is that schools are not doing a great job handling that ambiguity.

But it's not right to say that the criminal justice system must run its course before a school takes action. With giving my opinion on anyone's guilt, AJ's case has still not been resolved, and he isn't sitting in jail. Schools have every right to act quickly in just such a case. The same way you would get expelled for possession of drugs without a criminal conviction. Should the school have better procedures to protect the accused? Sure, absolutely. But expelling a student isn't sending them to jail and a school isn't a court.

It is a troubling area, and I personally think it has become too broad for the term "rape". My reason is that there probably aren't many husbands in America who have always stopped when their wife starts with "not tonight" or whatever. Yet she did say "no", so does that mean most husbands are rapists? As a culture we are taught perseverance - "the extra yard", "don't take 'no' for an answer", "kept saying 'no' but here we are on our 50th anniversary". Force isn't right, and I'm not arguing that. What I am saying is that people are trying to do black and white in a very gray world - retroactively in many instances.

With regard to school and expulsion, I waffle on expulsion on accusation with some evidence of misconduct. But the thing is that the women in these cases were guilty of underage drinking which should qualify them for disciplinary action as well. According to what has been said (admissions and witnesses), some (if not all) willingly went into the men's bedrooms. It appears way too much that the women were hanging on to "celebrity figures" and that neither used good judgment or restraint. Their bodies may be mature, but I think we give "young adults" way too much credit where maturity and judgement are concerned.

 

[Iam4utalways]

Not being an ass, honest question - You do know that AJ attended and graduated right? And that the school is being sued (in part) for making their own decision as you suggested?

Jumping in late, but I've got a few questions.

Something comparing student body Vs football team.

Are they kicking any accused rapist out of school?

Or are only athletes being accused?

All real questions.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

No argument. He was talking about those that get expelled which I assumed "intent" or equivalent, by default.

Ah, I see. I was just trying to clarify that the premise of the comparison itself was no good because school's don't expel kids for drug possession anymore.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Jumping in late, but I've got a few questions.

Something comparing student body Vs football team.

Are they kicking any accused rapist out of school?

Or are only athletes being accused?

All real questions.

I'm not sure there have been enough cases against regular students to make too much of a comparison yet.

 

[Iam4utalways]

I'm not sure there have been enough cases against regular students to make too much of a comparison yet.

Domestic violence has been a hot topic, since the Ray Rice video, ruffing up a woman, is out of bounds.

The only ones I've ever heard about were all athletes. I wasn't sure if others occurred and didn't get press, or there aren't any. Maybe those are the ones being "covered up".

They got it all wrong, have an incident with an athlete and it's a huge deal. With just some student, it's not even news.

That is a double standard.

 

[Biopsyman]

This all go back to mooning ... Really?

 

[82_VOL_83]

Bump....I don't see Alexis on the roster. Is he out of school all together?