Why is there such a quarrel with Christianity today?

[VolsSportsFan]

It's a book, written by men, albeit perhaps divinely inspired. Unless it is the only text to ever find a way to escape that culturally specific framework, then its stories, particularly those in the Old Testament, belong to a particular historical context. As I said, however, this does not mean that the word and truth of Jesus as savior is necessarily weakened. It just means that Iron Age people wouldn't understand things like evolution, modern physics, etc., so no author of the Bible was going to bother trying to explain such things.

This is just me, but it actually does weaken it, a lot. It seems very strange that an all knowing God would have writers write things in such a very narrowed scope considering it is supposed to be not only for them but for apparently humanity for the rest of time.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Ok to be fair, I should word that more along the lines of "I don't understand how anyone can be so confident in this" rather than "I don't know where they're getting it from."

But you can trace the chronogenealogies back as far as you want. Estimate, do the math, whatever. It still has nothing to do with the age of the planet.

If you start with the concepts of the inerrancy of the Bible and from that the need to interpret the Bible literally, then the chronogenealogies have a lot to do with age of the Earth.

 

[volprof]

This is just me, but it actually does weaken it, a lot. It seems very strange that an all knowing God would have writers write things in such a very narrowed scope considering it is supposed to be not only for them but for apparently humanity for the rest of time.

I was trying to be rational and nice at the same time, which, as you're probably aware, is impossible when it comes to discussions of religion, since by its very nature it is irrational. Doesn't mean it isn't true or doesn't reveal a truth, but it does make it very hard to speak intelligently about it without coming off as a "jerk," as Septic mentioned.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Had some Mormons roll up on me while I was in my garage routing some new window sills...They asked me if I needed help getting good with Jesus..and as I cracked open a 16oz Henninger and stood there wearing an old strip club T-shirt..I told them no thanks.

Didn't freak out like some posters on this board would lead one to believe they would....And I am 1000% more anti-religious then they are..

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Would any Christian here be willing to accept that their religion is "false" if sufficient evidence was ever presented? This is the reason why I can't say I'm an atheist with 100% certainty - there isn't 100% proof that a God doesn't exist, but if provided sufficient evidence of his or her existence, I'd gladly change my mind.

As for Christianity being attacked, I openly criticize all religions, but as much as I disagree with them all, I don't think y'all shouldn't be able to worship your God. As long as that privilege is extended to people of other faiths and non-believers too (which is where, I believe, the misconception about people hating Christians and loving Muslims comes in). I disagree with both of you, but I think you both should be allowed to do your thing.

I think atheists get hit pretty hard too with discrimination. An open non-believer would never get elected President in this country. Hell, I have to hide it from my family like a closeted homosexual.

If irrefutable evidence were able to be produced that showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist, then yes I would claim my religion as false. I would also concede how wrong I was to believe that way.

I wonder many atheists would change their stance if the situations were reversed? I think some would and some wouldn't. I have never understood why atheists have such a problem with people worshiping whatever they choose. They claim to be the more open minded and free thinking. Yet when someone chooses to follow a certain way, they are mocked for it. Irrational, illogical and stupid are familiar terms many atheists use to define a persons beliefs. Many atheists mock Christians for their staunch belief system that what they believe is absolute. Yet, these same atheists believe what they believe is absolute. At least I am willing to admit that my belief system could be wrong. Some atheists cannot even admit the possibility that God exists. Hypocrisy at its finest. I am not saying you specifically are this type of person.

Atheists absolutely get discriminated against and its just as wrong. Being an atheist should have absolutely no bearing on if a person wanted to become president or anything else. I have a few friends who are atheist and would not trade them for anything. Of course they are not the egotistical kind of atheists who mock and have the superiority complex like some others do.

As far as organized religion goes, my personal belief is that we humans have totally screwed up what Jesus originally intended for us. I do not believe Jesus meant for man to take a verse out of the bible and create a belief system out of it. maybe I am wrong on that.

 

[Septic]

I wonder many atheists would change their stance if the situations were reversed?

I've yet to meet one who hasn't pointed at lack of credible evidence as the largest reason for the rejection of the belief in a creator. You seem to think that non believers have an agenda that goes beyond that, they don't.

I have never understood why atheists have such a problem with people worshiping whatever they choose.

How many times does it have to be pointed out that atheists would by and large stfu if the religious would stop using their beliefs to shape PUBLIC policy?

Frankly, I don't understand why the "why do you care" argument keeps coming up. Asked and answered, again.

 

[volprof]

I've yet to meet one who hasn't pointed at lack of credible evidence as the largest reason for the rejection of the belief in a creator. You seem to think that non believers have an agenda that goes beyond that, they don't.




How many times does it have to be pointed out that atheists would by and large stfu if the religious would stop using their beliefs to shape PUBLIC policy?

Frankly, I don't understand why the "why do you care" argument keeps coming up. Asked and answered, again.

Lack of credible evidence is certainly the biggest factor for me, but, to be honest, I have some serious issues with the Abrahamic Triad that would make it difficult for me to subscribe faithfully to any of them even if definitive evidence was provided. Firstly, Judaism wouldn't have me, because I'm not Jewish. Secondly, I cannot give my support to a perfect deity that has created the hell of the Christian and Islamic faiths. Such a reality is an eternal punishment for finite crimes, and I would like to think I would pull a Lucifer and rebel despite knowing the truth - because the truth sucks and is not worth my dedication. But, then again, I would be just as likely to wimp out in fear of eternal damnation.

As for other major religions, I think I could see myself subscribing to most of them if given sufficient evidence.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

If irrefutable evidence were able to be produced that showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist, then yes I would claim my religion as false. I would also concede how wrong I was to believe that way.

I wonder many atheists would change their stance if the situations were reversed? I think some would and some wouldn't. I have never understood why atheists have such a problem with people worshiping whatever they choose. They claim to be the more open minded and free thinking. Yet when someone chooses to follow a certain way, they are mocked for it. Irrational, illogical and stupid are familiar terms many atheists use to define a persons beliefs. Many atheists mock Christians for their staunch belief system that what they believe is absolute. Yet, these same atheists believe what they believe is absolute. At least I am willing to admit that my belief system could be wrong. Some atheists cannot even admit the possibility that God exists. Hypocrisy at its finest. I am not saying you specifically are this type of person.

Atheists absolutely get discriminated against and its just as wrong. Being an atheist should have absolutely no bearing on if a person wanted to become president or anything else. I have a few friends who are atheist and would not trade them for anything. Of course they are not the egotistical kind of atheists who mock and have the superiority complex like some others do.

As far as organized religion goes, my personal belief is that we humans have totally screwed up what Jesus originally intended for us. I do not believe Jesus meant for man to take a verse out of the bible and create a belief system out of it. maybe I am wrong on that.

Thanks for the response. Yeah, if I had the evidence I'd believe. I don't have a problem with any person practicing any religion, despite it making no sense in my mind. I'd just prefer if we'd not show preferential treatment in our government. I wouldn't be surprised if my contract wasn't renewed if I were as open about my non-belief as my coworkers are about their beliefs.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

This is the point when I have learned to stop debating with someone like you. When you start throwing around terms like "magic" you're no longer trying to discuss your point, your goal at that point is only to be disrespectful. But if "magic" is the way you want to word it, then yes, I find what you would call "magic" much easier to swallow than "I don't know there was a bunch of nothing then the Big Bang then premordial soup and it was a big accident and now we're here."

Wayyyyy too many pieces had to accidentally fall into place for that. This design had a designer.

But let's not digress this conversation into an evolution/creation debate. There are plenty of old threads that can be bumped for that.

Takes way more faith to believe all this organized complexity in the universe occurred randomly for nobreason than to believe in a Creator.

To me some things are obvious ...like the fact that atoms, the smallest building blocks of matter...greatly resemble stars and planets...the largest things around us, in the way they are shapes and orbit eachother. There are millions of examples that point to a common designer. It's amazing.

Way to stand your ground. We have very similar beliefs I think. OC is a huge blessing to me in this forum. He speaks my kind more eloquently than I can...so to speak. Lol

 

[marcusluvsvols]

You're basically asking me to admit the Bible is little more than a culture-based narrative.

The Bible is the written word of God. I am simply willing to admit I don't know how old the Earth is, and I don't think the Bible tells us one way or the other.

Agree here as well. I don't ascribe to the day age theory, the gap theory, or any other attempt to square the Bible with the supposed scientific guess of the age of the earth (this week) it changes...heck Pluto was a planet when I was in school, and that was less than 20 years ago. I don't care how old the earth is. Don't think it could possibly ever effect me or mine in anyvway, or anyone else for that matter. God is great, and I am not.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

The issue is that no matter the proof, the religious will simply create a new miracle that allows them to continue with their faith.

 

[Orange_Crush]

The issue is that no matter the proof, the religious will simply create a new miracle that allows them to continue with their faith.

Tell me the proof that would disprove God, and we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just making baseless, overgeneralized attacks. I'll hang up and listen.

 

[volprof]

Tell me the proof that would disprove God, and we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just making baseless, overgeneralized attacks. I'll hang up and listen.

It is a pointless proposition. There is no proof that could disprove God. There is, however, proof that could be provided of a God.

 

[Orange_Crush]

It is a pointless proposition. There is no proof that could disprove God. There is, however, proof that could be provided of a God.

So... CWV was just being needlessly insulting?

 

[PKT_VOL]

It is a pointless proposition. There is no proof that could disprove God. There is, however, proof that could be provided of a God.

If two people buy into the same premises and have a specific enough concept of God, it can be done.

 

[gcbvol]

Had some Mormons roll up on me while I was in my garage routing some new window sills...They asked me if I needed help getting good with Jesus..and as I cracked open a 16oz Henninger and stood there wearing an old strip club T-shirt..I told them no thanks.

Didn't freak out like some posters on this board would lead one to believe they would....And I am 1000% more anti-religious then they are..

Ha. I was a JW back in the day. Did a lot of door to door service. It could get interesting.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Ha. I was a JW back in the day. Did a lot of door to door service. It could get interesting.

Don't know why this made me think of this story, but... Had a home security system salesman roll up one day trying to sell me on an alarm system. He rolled his window down one inch to talk to me about it, and refused to get out of the car until I put my dogs away. lol

 

[VolsSportsFan]

If irrefutable evidence were able to be produced that showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist, then yes I would claim my religion as false. I would also concede how wrong I was to believe that way.

I wonder many atheists would change their stance if the situations were reversed? I think some would and some wouldn't. I have never understood why atheists have such a problem with people worshiping whatever they choose. They claim to be the more open minded and free thinking. Yet when someone chooses to follow a certain way, they are mocked for it. Irrational, illogical and stupid are familiar terms many atheists use to define a persons beliefs. Many atheists mock Christians for their staunch belief system that what they believe is absolute. Yet, these same atheists believe what they believe is absolute. At least I am willing to admit that my belief system could be wrong. Some atheists cannot even admit the possibility that God exists. Hypocrisy at its finest. I am not saying you specifically are this type of person.

Atheists absolutely get discriminated against and its just as wrong. Being an atheist should have absolutely no bearing on if a person wanted to become president or anything else. I have a few friends who are atheist and would not trade them for anything. Of course they are not the egotistical kind of atheists who mock and have the superiority complex like some others do.

As far as organized religion goes, my personal belief is that we humans have totally screwed up what Jesus originally intended for us. I do not believe Jesus meant for man to take a verse out of the bible and create a belief system out of it. maybe I am wrong on that.

How would one produce evidence that a God doesn't exist? Even if you refuted every religious belief in the world, that wouldn't disprove that a God doesn't exist.

And to your second point, a lot. Whether they choose to worship said deity or not is a different story.

 

[volprof]

If two people buy into the same premises and have a specific enough concept of God, it can be done.

Yes, but good luck ever trying to accomplish that for everyone on Earth.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Takes way more faith to believe all this organized complexity in the universe occurred randomly for nobreason than to believe in a Creator.

To me some things are obvious ...like the fact that atoms, the smallest building blocks of matter...greatly resemble stars and planets...the largest things around us, in the way they are shapes and orbit eachother. There are millions of examples that point to a common designer. It's amazing.

Way to stand your ground. We have very similar beliefs I think. OC is a huge blessing to me in this forum. He speaks my kind more eloquently than I can...so to speak. Lol

Really wish I had a dollar every time I heard that nugget.

As far as design, if you're going to praise it then you're going to have to get into all the many, many things that are badly "designed".

 

[volprof]

So... CWV was just being needlessly insulting?

He does bring up something that always makes me pause though: what made the ancients so special that they actually got to observe miracles? And I'm not talking about your run-of-the-mill "My mom was cured of cancer yesterday!" miracles; I'm talking about epic Biblical miracles. What made those people so special? More specifically, what made Moses so special he got to actually talk with God in the form of a burning bush and see a manifestation of God reveal the Law? What made the Apostles so special they actually got to know Jesus and see his miracles? That hardly seems fair to the rest of us, and, while I know we talk about how life isn't fair, my understanding of a universal religion is that everyone is under the same obligations and duties no matter what - in such a system, given certain individuals advantages would seem counter to the universalism of the faith.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Don't know why this made me think of this story, but... Had a home security system salesman roll up one day trying to sell me on an alarm system. He rolled his window down one inch to talk to me about it, and refused to get out of the car until I put my dogs away. lol

Were you dogs big? If so, that makes more sense. If you had say a couple of Yorkies, then I'd say that guy is a little on the overly cautious side.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

He does bring up something that always makes me pause though: what made the ancients so special that they actually got to observe miracles? And I'm not talking about your run-of-the-mill "My mom was cured of cancer yesterday!" miracles; I'm talking about epic Biblical miracles. What made those people so special? More specifically, what made Moses so special he got to actually talk with God in the form of a burning bush and see a manifestation of God reveal the Law? What made the Apostles so special they actually got to know Jesus and see his miracles? That hardly seems fair to the rest of us, and, while I know we talk about how life isn't fair, my understanding of a universal religion is that everyone is under the same obligations and duties no matter what - in such a system, given certain individuals advantages would seem counter to the universalism of the faith.

I agree 100%, and that leads to my skepticism.

Seems very strange and coincidental that all of the superpower miracle stuff happened back in an age where generally people had no idea about anything other than their small bubble. The people of the Bible didn't even know about lands across the ocean, much less hardly anything about anything outside the Earth.

Also strange how all the cool stuff stopped the more advanced humanity got, and suddenly letters made into a book is all we needed.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

I've yet to meet one who hasn't pointed at lack of credible evidence as the largest reason for the rejection of the belief in a creator. You seem to think that non believers have an agenda that goes beyond that, they don't.




How many times does it have to be pointed out that atheists would by and large stfu if the religious would stop using their beliefs to shape PUBLIC policy?

Frankly, I don't understand why the "why do you care" argument keeps coming up. Asked and answered, again.

As for the first part, pure BS. Maybe thats your stance and some others but if you honestly believe that all atheists are just in it for the credible evidence, then I have some oceanfront property in Idaho I could sell you.

To your second point, maybe maybe not. I have my doubts. As I have said, atheists tend to love mocking believers. Do you honestly believe the poster boys of atheism like Sam Harris and Dawkins would stop with their
condescension? I highly doubt it. Guys like that love to use their "knowledge" to berate those who believe diffently than they do. Some atheists have a superiority complex that likely will never go away.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

We'd still have fun mocking your science, even if you weren't religious.

My science? Are you talking about physics? Biochemisty? Organic chemistry?