Making a Murderer (w/ Spoilers)

[loggervol]

I just went through a few articles trying to find all of this missing evidence. The only thing I found that wasn't made clear on the show was the three phone calls made that day from SA to TH.

There was talk that SA tried to mislead TH about who she was doing the pictures for. Well the morning before she disappeared, she had called and left a message on his answering machine saying she would be there around 2:30.. I find it weird that she called and left a message if she didn't know where she was going.

Has anyone talked about the smell that would have been around that area after burning a human body? I've never smelled it myself but I've heard other people talk about how terrible the odor is. I'm saying that odor would have been there the next morning, plus it would have been in SA & BD's clothes. Why wouldn't BD's mom have noticed the smell?

 

[SamRebel35]

I can't think of one substantive piece of evidence that doesn't have huge red flags regarding its reliability. Sand, you seem to take everything the state has offered as gospel even though it is undeniable that this whole investigation was compromised from the very beginning.

Here's a good article about the suspicious nature of the bone cataloging and documentation efforts. Hint: it wasn't even in the ballpark of being considered "by the book".

https://justiceforbradcooper.wordpr...e-mishandled-in-teresa-halbach-investigation/

 

[Carl Pickens]

I've only watched through the 5th episode and right now I'm thinking Avery killed her and the cops planted evidence in order to try and solidify their case. Dirty bastages all around.....

 

[loggervol]

I can't think of one substantive piece of evidence that doesn't have huge red flags regarding its reliability. Sand, you seem to take everything the state has offered as gospel even though it is undeniable that this whole investigation was compromised from the very beginning.

Here's a good article about the suspicious nature of the bone cataloging and documentation efforts. Hint: it wasn't even in the ballpark of being considered "by the book".

https://justiceforbradcooper.wordpr...e-mishandled-in-teresa-halbach-investigation/

Nothing surprises me about this case. It's like they said, ah hell, let's throw out any kind of protocol. We're going to get a conviction.

 

[PotS]

I've only watched through the 5th episode and right now I'm thinking Avery killed her and the cops planted evidence in order to try and solidify their case. Dirty bastages all around.....

To me this is the most likely, but I haven't had it proven beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Give_All_Vol]

Do you have a copy of all the transcripts of Brendan's interviews with the police and the dates they were done?

I think this has all of them. Many in video and/or audio even. Dassey Confessions ? Recordings and Transcripts

Hard to believe you're that confident in your opinion without finding these. Maybe you have already since you linked a page from the site already. I read it like you were actually asking though.

I'm in the same camp as most people. I think Avery very well may have done it. I even think Brendan may have been involved. But I don't think that any of that was proven in court. The waters got way too murky for me to draw conclusions from evidence that was mostly circumstantial, and in my opinion, tampered with to some degree.

What I take away most from watching this and seeing the reactions of everyone is just how strong of a reaction the media can get out of the public. At the time of Avery's trial, the media had the public damning Avery well before his conviction. And here we are 10 years later and the only thing that has changed is the media outlet. And what do you know, a completely opposite reaction from the public.

tl/dr: Make your own conclusions people. Don't let outside influence alone do it for you.

 

[TheDeeble]

What I take away most from watching this and seeing the reactions of everyone is just how strong of a reaction the media can get out of the public. At the time of Avery's trial, the media had the public damning Avery well before his conviction. And here we are 10 years later and the only thing that has changed is the media outlet. And what do you know, a completely opposite reaction from the public.

Avery's lawyer strongly criticized that iirc. The prosecution held press conferences going into graphic details of what Dassey "said" he and Avery did and strongly skewed public opinion against Avery. Then in Avery's trial the prosecution didn't even use Dassey so the defense couldn't counter what was publicly claimed before the trial started.

 

[Sandvol]

I think this has all of them. Many in video and/or audio even. Dassey Confessions ? Recordings and Transcripts

Hard to believe you're that confident in your opinion without finding these. Maybe you have already since you linked a page from the site already. I read it like you were actually asking though.

I'm in the same camp as most people. I think Avery very well may have done it. I even think Brendan may have been involved. But I don't think that any of that was proven in court. The waters got way too murky for me to draw conclusions from evidence that was mostly circumstantial, and in my opinion, tampered with to some degree.

What I take away most from watching this and seeing the reactions of everyone is just how strong of a reaction the media can get out of the public. At the time of Avery's trial, the media had the public damning Avery well before his conviction. And here we are 10 years later and the only thing that has changed is the media outlet. And what do you know, a completely opposite reaction from the public.

tl/dr: Make your own conclusions people. Don't let outside influence alone do it for you.

I found it in the March 1st confession transcript. After reading it I don't think it exonerates Brendan in any way. Here's how it goes:

Weigart: All right I'm just gonna come out and ask you. Who shot her in the head?
Dassey: He did.
Fassbender: Then why didn't you tell us that?
Dassey: Cuz I couldn't think of it.
Fassbender: Now you remember it? (Dassey nods) Tell us about it then.
Dassey: That he shot her with his .22.
Weigart: You were there though?
Dassey: Yeah.

So he answered "he did" without blinking and also "that he shot her with his .22."

So, how did he know she was shot with a .22? I'm sorry this really isn't a gotcha moment like the filmmakers and the lawyers want to make out. If Dassey wasn't involved why did he implicate himself? I just don't believe the excuse that he was too dumb.

I believe what probably really happened is Dassey heard her screaming and his uncle calls him over and invites him inside. Avery gets him involved because he thinks that is the best way to keep him quiet. Dassey admits to cutting her throat (but not killing her-convenient) and then raping her and forgets about shooting her. He probably forgot about that because he probably shot her a couple of times too. Not a sympathetic character to me. The brutal murder of this beautiful young woman.

 

[bamawriter]

Wow Sand,

You are willing to jump to so many conclusions that have no basis in fact. You're doing the exact same thing that many of the folks who watched the series did: you had a knee-jerk reaction without considering the evidence at any more than face value. You are simply placing undue trust in the cops while others are placing undue trust in the producers.

Mind you, I don't disagree with all of your conclusions. But even where we agree, I'm shocked by your blind acceptance of the words of guys with badges.

 

[PotS]

I found it in the March 1st confession transcript. After reading it I don't think it exonerates Brendan in any way. Here's how it goes:

Weigart: All right I'm just gonna come out and ask you. Who shot her in the head?
Dassey: He did.
Fassbender: Then why didn't you tell us that?
Dassey: Cuz I couldn't think of it.
Fassbender: Now you remember it? (Dassey nods) Tell us about it then.
Dassey: That he shot her with his .22.
Weigart: You were there though?
Dassey: Yeah.

So he answered "he did" without blinking and also "that he shot her with his .22."

So, how did he know she was shot with a .22? I'm sorry this really isn't a gotcha moment like the filmmakers and the lawyers want to make out. If Dassey wasn't involved why did he implicate himself? I just don't believe the excuse that he was too dumb.

I believe what probably really happened is Dassey heard her screaming and his uncle calls him over and invites him inside. Avery gets him involved because he thinks that is the best way to keep him quiet. Dassey admits to cutting her throat (but not killing her-convenient) and then raping her and forgets about shooting her. He probably forgot about that because he probably shot her a couple of times too. Not a sympathetic character to me. The brutal murder of this beautiful young woman.

So what you quoted came from page 63 of that transcript. Right before that starting on page 60, they tell Brendan they know something else happened to her head (after Brendan says her throat has been cut and she's unconscious or dead).

Brendan says they cut off her hair. The investigators say no, something else. He punched her? No, be truthful here Brendan, we need you to be honest so we can help you. Brendan locks up, then they go into the alright I'm just gonna come out and say it, who shot her in the head.

Brendan immediately snaps "he did". They fed that to him and led him into that.

What I will agree with, is why the hell did Brendan "confess" in the first place? There were some interrogations that had audio issues and couldn't be recorded. My feeling, which isn't based on any evidence, is that the investigators bullied Brendan into believing he had done something wrong and then coerced him to admit to anything they wanted because he thought they were going to help him get out of the so-called "wrongdoing"; see his line about making it back to 5th period for a project after the interrogations.

I'm on mobile, but when was the bullet found? Before or after this march 1st deposition?

 

[bamawriter]

Every article I've read said the bullet was found in March 2006. Can't find the specific day.

Given that Dassey first mentioned the gunshot on March 1st, it would seem impossible that the bullet was found before the "confession".

I'm reading the entire Avery trial transcript. I'm almost 1000 pages in, and I've not yet completed day 4 of 27. Interesting stuff. The documentary played fast and loose with some of the facts.

 

[PotS]

Every article I've read said the bullet was found in March 2006. Can't find the specific day.

Given that Dassey first mentioned the gunshot on March 1st, it would seem impossible that the bullet was found before the "confession".

I'm reading the entire Avery trial transcript. I'm almost 1000 pages in, and I've not yet completed day 4 of 27. Interesting stuff. The documentary played fast and loose with some of the facts.

I started to read through the trial docs from the beginning, but I got quickly overwhelmed. I applaud you, sir.

I was hoping the Dateline episode on the trial would attempt to unearth all the intricacies the documentary either omit or glossed over, but it was a poor man's cliff notes of the Netflix series.

If in your studies you find something that really seems to be a flag, please point it out here and discuss.

 

[bamawriter]

I started to read through the trial docs from the beginning, but I got quickly overwhelmed. I applaud you, sir.

I was hoping the Dateline episode on the trial would attempt to unearth all the intricacies the documentary either omit or glossed over, but it was a poor man's cliff notes of the Netflix series.

If in your studies you find something that really seems to be a flag, please point it out here and discuss.

The Bobby Dassey testimony was severely distorted in the series. I'll provide detail tomorrow.

 

[Sandvol]

So what you quoted came from page 63 of that transcript. Right before that starting on page 60, they tell Brendan they know something else happened to her head (after Brendan says her throat has been cut and she's unconscious or dead).

Brendan says they cut off her hair. The investigators say no, something else. He punched her? No, be truthful here Brendan, we need you to be honest so we can help you. Brendan locks up, then they go into the alright I'm just gonna come out and say it, who shot her in the head.

Brendan immediately snaps "he did". They fed that to him and led him into that.

What I will agree with, is why the hell did Brendan "confess" in the first place? There were some interrogations that had audio issues and couldn't be recorded. My feeling, which isn't based on any evidence, is that the investigators bullied Brendan into believing he had done something wrong and then coerced him to admit to anything they wanted because he thought they were going to help him get out of the so-called "wrongdoing"; see his line about making it back to 5th period for a project after the interrogations.

I'm on mobile, but when was the bullet found? Before or after this march 1st deposition?

I take that to mean he didn't want to talk about the shooting. Maybe because he participated. Do you expect him to be completely truthful. I would think most of these things go like this and information has to be mined from these criminals. I understand Dassey's attorney was negligent and should probably get a retrial. But Dassey participated without a doubt.

 

[Sandvol]

Wow Sand,

You are willing to jump to so many conclusions that have no basis in fact. You're doing the exact same thing that many of the folks who watched the series did: you had a knee-jerk reaction without considering the evidence at any more than face value. You are simply placing undue trust in the cops while others are placing undue trust in the producers.

Mind you, I don't disagree with all of your conclusions. But even where we agree, I'm shocked by your blind acceptance of the words of guys with badges.

Jump to conclusions? No. Logical inference.

1. His cousin confronted him about his crying and he confessed to her about what he and his uncle did to Teresa Halbach.
2. His cousin relayed the information to the police when they were doing routine questioning of family members.
3. They went to Dassey's school and read him his rights and questioned him.
4. He divulged information that he was somehow involved.
5. He and his mother both agreed for him to talk to the police without an attorney present. The police made sure he understood his rights.
6. He placed himself at the bonfire where the remains were found.
7. He knew aspects of the case like TH was in the back of the car, that she had been shot with a .22, that Avery had lifted the RAV 4's hood, that Avery had put her key in his bedroom, that he had put her cell phone in the burn barrel.
8. He implicated himself when he didn't have to. Any evidence that he was involved was probably on Halbach's body. So, the only evidence they had was his confession.

What is jumping to conclusions is believing the attorney's assertions that Avery must have been framed and therefore Dassey because of the law suit without one shred of evidence to support the allegation. That is jumping to conclusions. Just because he didn't commit the prior rape doesn't give him a free pass for life.

 

[bamawriter]

I take that to mean he didn't want to talk about the shooting. Maybe because he participated. Do you expect him to be completely truthful. I would think most of these things go like this and information has to be mined from these criminals. I understand Dassey's attorney was negligent and should probably get a retrial. But Dassey participated without a doubt.

If he were to get a retrial based upon ineffective assistance of counsel, then the 150 page confession you're fond of citing becomes inadmissable.

 

[Sandvol]

If he were to get a retrial based upon ineffective assistance of counsel, then the 150 page confession you're fond of citing becomes inadmissable.

Possible. But, would that make you feel good that a cold blooded murderer goes free?

 

[bamawriter]

Possible. But, would that make you feel good that a cold blooded murderer goes free?

I don't believe he is a murderer.

But even if he is a murderer based completely upon your theory, he wasn't acting in cold blood. Again, based completely on your theory.

 

[Sandvol]

I don't believe he is a murderer.

But even if he is a murderer based completely upon your theory, he wasn't acting in cold blood. Again, based completely on your theory.

I agree. He was easily malleable in my opinion but not as much as the documentary made out. Assuming he participated but did not act in cold blood but was heavily swayed by his uncle what should his penalty be?

 

[bamawriter]

I agree. He was easily malleable in my opinion but not as much as the documentary made out. Assuming he participated but did not act in cold blood but was heavily swayed by his uncle what should his penalty be?

I don't know Wisconsin law well enough to say. In TN I would guess he'd be looking at anything from voluntary manslaughter to Murder 2. If it's the former, he'd already be on parole.

 

[Sandvol]

I don't know Wisconsin law well enough to say. In TN I would guess he'd be looking at anything from voluntary manslaughter to Murder 2. If it's the former, he'd already be on parole.

I hate it for the kid. Would he have committed such a heinous act on his own? I don't think so. Terrible role models around him. Also, an absentee father. He's going to be almost 60 when he gets out. I would be fine with a shorter sentence of say 20 years. He gets out when he is 37 and still can have a decent life. Also, would be agreeable to a minimum security prison for him so he is not incarcerated with the most hardened criminals. But, that was a very brutal crime and I think he has to pay along with his psychopathic uncle.

 

[PotS]

I take that to mean he didn't want to talk about the shooting. Maybe because he participated. Do you expect him to be completely truthful. I would think most of these things go like this and information has to be mined from these criminals. I understand Dassey's attorney was negligent and should probably get a retrial. But Dassey participated without a doubt.

I don't think interrogations typically go like this. I don't think investigators give up information like "who shot her in the head?" What made them think she had been shot? What evidence did they have for them to think she'd been shot? He just admitted to slashing her throat, why dig deeper to pin a firearm into this? I think they were trying to build a confession of murder that implicated Steve Avery, and they found their puppet in Brendan. Shot in the head. Check, we can "locate a bullet." What type? Check, .22 rifle above Avery's bed.

And here's the fundamental difference between you and I, SV. I DO have doubt that Brendan participated. I have seen no physical evidence to corroborate anything Brendan said, and based on my interpretation and context of his transcripts, audio, and video, I don't think Brendan developed and told his confession without being coerced.

 

[SamRebel35]

Another interesting twist on the timeline. Karen Halbach (Teresa's mother) signed the death certificate on November 10th. The remains in the pit and barrels were not positively identified as Teresa's until January 19th. Is that not a little but unusual?

 

[bamawriter]

Another interesting twist on the timeline. Karen Halbach (Teresa's mother) signed the death certificate on November 10th. The remains in the pit and barrels were not positively identified as Teresa's until January 19th. Is that not a little but unusual?

I don't think that's all that odd. She was missing, presumed dead, and human remains were found at the last place she was seen alive. Teresa would have been presumed dead even if the bones turned out to be someone else. The death certificate is just one part of a larger process.

 

[SamRebel35]

I don't think that's all that odd. She was missing, presumed dead, and human remains were found at the last place she was seen alive. Teresa would have been presumed dead even if the bones turned out to be someone else. The death certificate is just one part of a larger process.

Hmm I can see that.

However, there is something else that's strange. The death certificate claims an autopsy was performed. An autopsy on what? A Pile of unidentified bones in a storage bin in calumet County awaiting DNA testing? I suspect nothing was nefarious about this, but it seems like it could possibly be one more aspect of the case that was not even close to "by the book".