Are Old Testament Stories Allegory or Literal History?

#27
#27
Septic said:
I think it was those damn Shriners that were responsible for Dooley.
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It's all making sense now. I thought the USofA was a long-term plan by the Illuminati to bring about a tyrannical new world order. It's worse. The US was founded to cripple UT Football.
 
#29
#29
Obsessed said:
Shriners are Masons.

We had nothing to do with Dooley. Obviously we should have.
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Are you a Shriner?

If so, do you dress up like the Flinstones and drive the little go carts around in circles in the parades?

I hear that's quite an honor.
 
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#30
#30
64274.jpg
 
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#31
#31
Septic said:
Are you a Shriner?

If so, do you dress up like the Flinstones and drive the little go carts around in circles in the parades?

I hear that's quite an honor.
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Being somewhat serious for a moment, the honor is in the support they give to the children's hospital. It's a group I wouldn't hesitate to donate to for that purpose.
 
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#32
#32
Septic said:
Are you a Shriner?

If so, do you dress up like the Flinstones and drive the little go carts around in circles in the parades?

I hear that's quite an honor.
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No sir.

Shriners are just a branch off of the Masons.

You wouldn't believe the amount of money they spend on children in need of life saving surgeries. As well as taking care of their parents during that time of need.
 
#33
#33
ClearwaterVol said:
Jonah, Noah, Moses, King Solomon etc. Do you believe them to be historically accurate or more of a collection of parables?
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Agnostic here: I don't know about allegory, but if there is truth to the stories, the Bible is not telling it all. I can't imagine a loving God being the type to flood and kill everyone on earth. My guess is this would be an explanation added after the fact. I would say the false parts are that God sent it, that God wanted to destroy the wicked, and the details about the flood became a tall tale. It didn't really cover the earth, just Noah's world. Etc.

The most troubling story to me is that of Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac. It gives license to an insane person who thinks God is telling them to do violent things.
 
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#34
#34
Grand Vol said:
Being somewhat serious for a moment, the honor is in the support they give to the children's hospital. It's a group I wouldn't hesitate to donate to for that purpose.
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My Grandpa was very proud to be a Shriner. As far as I know it's a great organization. Its days are numbered though. From what I hear, they are having a hard time recruiting the younger generation.
 
#35
#35
n_huffhines said:
My Grandpa was very proud to be a Shriner. As far as I know it's a great organization. Its days are numbered though. From what I hear, they are having a hard time recruiting the younger generation.
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I'm not surprised.

They are taking religion out of everything. Whether you are a believer or not, it is a solid foundation for the "cause".
 
#36
#36
n_huffhines said:
The most troubling story to me is that of Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac. It gives license to an insane person who thinks God is telling them to do violent things.
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A great game show could be created to address this and similar examples/figures from the Bible.

It could be called "Prophet or Loon?"
 
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#37
#37
n_huffhines said:
My Grandpa was very proud to be a Shriner. As far as I know it's a great organization. Its days are numbered though. From what I hear, they are having a hard time recruiting the younger generation.
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Kind of sad really. It's a great cause just like St Judes.

I wonder if they could go along the same route that St Judes takes with getting corporations involved as well as the intersection money raisers like the fire departments do.
 
#38
#38
Obsessed said:
I'm not surprised.

They are taking religion out of everything. Whether you are a believer or not, it is a solid foundation for the "cause".
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Oh pray tell, who is "they"?

The Nazis? Muslims? Gays?

Has a cabal of gay Muslim Nazis infiltrated the Shriners?
 
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#39
#39
n_huffhines said:
Agnostic here: I don't know about allegory, but if there is truth to the stories, the Bible is not telling it all. I can't imagine a loving God being the type to flood and kill everyone on earth. My guess is this would be an explanation added after the fact. I would say the false parts are that God sent it, that God wanted to destroy the wicked, and the details about the flood became a tall tale. It didn't really cover the earth, just Noah's world. Etc.

The most troubling story to me is that of Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac. It gives license to an insane person who thinks God is telling them to do violent things.
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About anything could give an insane person license to do violent things.
 
#40
#40
The stories in the OT are mostly real events couched in historical re-telling of Ancient Near Eastern culture, and are thus a combination of both fact and legend in varying proportion.

Genesis is written as proto-history with some very exaggerated ages for its characters. But an ancient would have understood it as having some aspect of truth to the stories.

However, I think most of the OT is grounded in some real historical events.

For instance, why invent a history of your people that says you were slaves for 400 years and that your main leader (Moses) wasn't even allowed to enter the Promised Land? Why create legends saying your people disobey God and are repeatedly conquered by enemies for your continued rebellion?

King David, the "man after God's own heart," is depicted as an unjust murderer of Uriah. Who makes up such a horrible story about your best king? Who tells that unless it is true?

David's son, King Solomon, is supposed to be the wisest manin the world, but even he is also lead astray to worship idols by his many wives. Why invent that story and make your heroes look bad?

Many of the Bible stories are things you wouldn't invent because they are so counter-intuitive.

In the book of Jonah, the prophet of God runs away from his duty to preach to the city of Nineveh, a hated enemy of Israel. In a plot twist, the people of Nineveh repent and God spares them. Then the prophet Jonah is angry with God's mercy! The wicked enemies of God listen while the prophet was the rebel! Why make THAT up?

I'll continue this post later.
 
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#42
#42
JoeKyleVol said:
The stories in the OT are mostly real events couched in historical re-telling of Ancient Near Eastern culture, and are thus a combination of both fact and legend in varying proportion.

Genesis is written as proto-history with some very exaggerated ages for its characters. But an ancient would have understood it as having some aspect of truth to the stories.

However, I think most of the OT is grounded in some real historical events.

For instance, why invent a history of your people that says you were slaves for 400 years and that your main leader (Moses) wasn't even allowed to enter the Promised Land? Why create legends saying your people disobey God and are repeatedly conquered by enemies for your continued rebellion?

King David, the "man after God's own heart," is depicted as an unjust murderer of Uriah. Who makes up such a horrible story about your best king? Who tells that unless it is true?

David's son, King Solomon, is supposed to be the wisest manin the world, but even he is also lead astray to worship idols by his many wives. Why invent that story and make your heroes look bad?

Many of the Bible stories are things you wouldn't invent because they are so counter-intuitive.

In the book of Jonah, the prophet of God runs away from his duty to preach to the city of Nineveh, a hated enemy of Israel. In a plot twist, the people of Nineveh repent and God spares them. Then the prophet Jonah is angry with God's mercy! The wicked enemies of God listen while the prophet was the rebel! Why make THAT up?

I'll continue this post later.
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If the below is any indication about the above, then I'd hold a bit more skepticism on the matters:

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.
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Were Jews Ever Really Slaves in Egypt, or Is Passover a Myth? - The Jewish Thinker - Israel News - Haaretz Israeli News Source
 
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#43
#43
JoeKyleVol said:
The stories in the OT are mostly real events couched in historical re-telling of Ancient Near Eastern culture, and are thus a combination of both fact and legend in varying proportion.

Genesis is written as proto-history with some very exaggerated ages for its characters. But an ancient would have understood it as having some aspect of truth to the stories.

However, I think most of the OT is grounded in some real historical events.

For instance, why invent a history of your people that says you were slaves for 400 years and that your main leader (Moses) wasn't even allowed to enter the Promised Land? Why create legends saying your people disobey God and are repeatedly conquered by enemies for your continued rebellion?

King David, the "man after God's own heart," is depicted as an unjust murderer of Uriah. Who makes up such a horrible story about your best king? Who tells that unless it is true?

David's son, King Solomon, is supposed to be the wisest manin the world, but even he is also lead astray to worship idols by his many wives. Why invent that story and make your heroes look bad?

Many of the Bible stories are things you wouldn't invent because they are so counter-intuitive.

In the book of Jonah, the prophet of God runs away from his duty to preach to the city of Nineveh, a hated enemy of Israel. In a plot twist, the people of Nineveh repent and God spares them. Then the prophet Jonah is angry with God's mercy! The wicked enemies of God listen while the prophet was the rebel! Why make THAT up?

I'll continue this post later.
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If the point is to prove how much you have to rely on God and how evil humanity is, then it makes perfect sense why you would make even the supposed heroes with major faults.
 
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#45
#45
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#46
#46
VolsSportsFan said:
I was about to post the same thing; the problem with the Exodus story is there is very little if any evidence that it happened.
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There's similar legitimate concerns over the veracity (and even existence) of another important component/figure from the New Testament, but I'll hold my tongue on that one.

Edit: As for the Exodus tales, I'd say it's all very explainable: The ancient Hebrews, probably through trade routes, were exposed in small numbers to the glory and riches of Egypt. Like any backwoods, backwater wannabes in that part of the world, these strongly ethnocentric men then came back to cook up tales to rationalize for the people why they had to get all their cool **** from somewhere else. The old "the ones with all the cool **** we want are decadent and decaying while we're youthful, vigorous, and holy" narrative. As old as time. Russians do it all the time with the West, as a side note.
 
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