To Protect and to Serve...

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#4,454
#4,454
I'm more disturbed by the mental illness aspect and the failure to use less-than-lethal force.

GV, maybe this time you can clarify why it's so hard to reach for the taser instead of the gun?
 
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#4,456
#4,456
BartW said:
I'm more disturbed by the mental illness aspect and the failure to use less-than-lethal force.

GV, maybe this time you can clarify why it's so hard to reach for the taser instead of the gun?
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I'l ignore the snide way you ask and say in this case, there doesn't appear to be an excuse.

And this is apples and oranges to the other event you, again, are being snide about referring to.
 
#4,457
#4,457
Grand Vol said:
I'l ignore the snide way you ask and say in this case, there doesn't appear to be an excuse.

And this is apples and oranges to the other event you, again, are being snide about referring to.
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Trying really hard to ignore it, huh? :p

I wasn’t trying to draw a direct comparison (though I strongly disagree with your assertion that the Dallas officers are any less at fault than in this case). But now I will make a direct comparison:

Family Files Suit In Deadly Miami Gardens Police Shooting
The family of Lavall Hall, 25, called police for assistance on Sunday, February 15th, because he thought someone was after him. Hall’s family said he had been diagnosed as schizophrenic. When the officers showed up Stephen Johnson, the police chief at the time, said Hall went after them.

“(When officer Peter) Ehrlich tried to exit vehicle. He attacked him with a broom handle.

Johnson said officer Eddo Trimino saw what happened and chased Hall who at one point reportedly turned and went after the officer with the four foot broom handle.

“Officer Trimino was struck in head by metal end of that broom handle,” said Johnson.

Johnson said both Trimino and Ehrlich deployed their Tasers on Hall to no avail.

Johnson said, “The subject didn’t comply and was combative towards Trimino.”

That’s when the fatal shots were fired.

The lawsuit against the officers, former police chief Stephen Johnson and the City of Miami Gardens alleges the officers used excessive force with Hall, violating his civil rights.

According to the suit “…at the time that Hall was accosted by Defendants, he had not committed a crime or offense nor was he engaged in or planning to commit a crime.”

It goes onto say “…when defendants began to yell commands at Hall, he manifested signs and symptoms that he had a mental handicap. Hall was unable to communicate, clearly did not understand what was going on, and was visibly scared.”
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In your opinion, is a broom handle more or less deadly than a screwdriver? Who is at fault for escalating the situation? And is deadly force absolutely necessary??
 
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#4,458
#4,458
BartW said:
The Brits figured it out.
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Methods That Police Use on the Mentally Ill Are Madness
Eugene Robinson once pointed out that U.S. police officers shoot somewhere between 500 and 1,000 people per year, whereas "there were no fatal police shootings in Great Britain last year. Not one. In Germany, there have been eight police killings over the past two years. In Canada—a country with its own frontier ethos and no great aversion to firearms—police shootings average about a dozen a year." He added that this is partly because the U.S. is a gun-filled culture, but that something else was going on too. Since every developed country has both mentally ill people and screwdrivers, this case is a data point in support of that contention. Compare the video from Dallas to London policemen going above and beyond what anyone could reasonably expect in an attempt to disarm a man with a machete:

I wouldn't ask that much of our police. But I'd ask for much better than the outcome in the Harrison killing—whereas a retired trainer from the Dallas police department said the two officers did "an absolutely perfect job" and that he would show their video as an example of good tactics!
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#4,459
#4,459
San Francisco v. Sheehan Supreme Court case: Police shot mentally ill woman
The justices’ and police advocates’ numerous references to “armed and violent,” “direct threats,” and “public safety”—without a mention of Sheehan’s diagnosis, that she was off her meds, or that the situation could’ve been de-escalated by nonviolent means—will no doubt play a part in calculations of the “reasonableness” of the officers’ conduct. And if an officer’s fears are found to be reasonable, the law will vest him with immunity for his constitutional wrongs, never mind that his victim was mentally ill, in her 50s, overweight, and trapped in her own home with nowhere to go.

For all these bad omens, something Justice Sonia Sotomayor said toward the end of the Sheehan arguments infused some legal realism—and humanity—into the proceeding. She was responding to a ridiculous scenario that portrayed Sheehan as a conniving outlaw ready to ambush the responding police. “Maybe there was a cup of bleach she could throw in the face of the officers,” suggested the lawyer for San Francisco, as if Sheehan were ready to deploy her “cluttered room full of household items” as a form of warfare against the police.

Sotomayor pondered whether the law was designed precisely to prevent these terrible assumptions about people with mental illnesses. That the law’s purpose was to give them a “chance” in the worst-case scenario, much like officers are given the benefit of the doubt in the wake of a civilian shooting.

“Unless we want a society in which the mentally ill are automatically killed,” Sotomayor said, before delving into statistics about the hundreds of mentally ill persons who are killed by police officers each year, contrasted with the far fewer officers who are killed under similar circumstances. “Isn’t the ADA ... intended to ensure that police officers try mitigation in these situations before they jump to violence?” she asked.
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And how about those statistics?

More than half of suspects shot and killed by police are mentally ill — though they commit only 4% of violent crimes
 
#4,460
#4,460
BartW said:
In your opinion, is a broom handle more or less deadly than a screwdriver? Who is at fault for escalating the situation? And is deadly force absolutely necessary??
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So in this case, did the officers attempt to use less than lethal force? Man starts going out of control, family calls police. Police arrive. Man attacks them. They attempt to use less than lethal force:

“Officer Trimino was struck in head by metal end of that broom handle,” said Johnson.

Johnson said both Trimino and Ehrlich deployed their Tasers on Hall to no avail.
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After which the suspect continued attacking them. Now I'm not sure how much a person can take of being smacked in the head with a metal broom stick, but eventually it's going to take a toll. And we are missing some valuable information here like how many injuries did the officers take? Were they starting to black out where the suspect might have gotten his hands on one of their firearms? Was the stick sharpened at one end or could cause injury by stabbing? What were the final actions of the suspect prior to lethal force being used?

So again:

Apples-Oranges. Although the similarities in the case with the screwdriver and this one are more appropriate than a naked man who gets shot without warning.

Have you ever been Tased? It's not pleasant. And furthermore, for a person to be able to shake off two shots from a Taser is pretty remarkable. So yes, they did attempt to use LTL force prior to resorting to deadly force. And if a person manages to go through two of those and still come on the attack, yes, at that point lethal force would be probably be justified depending on the circumstances. Look at it this way, if you're getting smacked around with a metal rod by a crazy man and you've used all other means at your 6'5 350 lbs disposal, would you continue to get whipped and take the chance of your firearm falling into that kind of person's hands? And before you go on the "they could have wrestled it away from him" spiel, it's nice to say that right now. But even with two, it's not easy to get an improvised weapon away from someone flailing it about.
 
#4,464
#4,464
Grand Vol said:
So in this case, did the officers attempt to use less than lethal force? Man starts going out of control, family calls police. Police arrive. Man attacks them. They attempt to use less than lethal force:



After which the suspect continued attacking them. Now I'm not sure how much a person can take of being smacked in the head with a metal broom stick, but eventually it's going to take a toll. And we are missing some valuable information here like how many injuries did the officers take? Were they starting to black out where the suspect might have gotten his hands on one of their firearms? Was the stick sharpened at one end or could cause injury by stabbing? What were the final actions of the suspect prior to lethal force being used?

So again:

Apples-Oranges. Although the similarities in the case with the screwdriver and this one are more appropriate than a naked man who gets shot without warning.

Have you ever been Tased? It's not pleasant. And furthermore, for a person to be able to shake off two shots from a Taser is pretty remarkable. So yes, they did attempt to use LTL force prior to resorting to deadly force. And if a person manages to go through two of those and still come on the attack, yes, at that point lethal force would be probably be justified depending on the circumstances. Look at it this way, if you're getting smacked around with a metal rod by a crazy man and you've used all other means at your 6'5 350 lbs disposal, would you continue to get whipped and take the chance of your firearm falling into that kind of person's hands? And before you go on the "they could have wrestled it away from him" spiel, it's nice to say that right now. But even with two, it's not easy to get an improvised weapon away from someone flailing it about.
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After the tasers failed to take the suspect down the officers should clearly have aimed at his pinkie toe to subdue the suspect. Only if that failed would lethal force be justified.
 
#4,466
#4,466
Grand Vol said:
You really aren't going to leave this one alone no matter how many times we discuss it?

You already said we'd disagree. Just drop it. Until someone lunges at you unexpectedly with a screwdriver and you're faced with a choice, shut up with your second guessing.
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You completely missed the point. Did you watch the video? I should've linked it; it's the perfect example of what our police should strive for

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw[/youtube]

In America, that man would've been shot dead by the 20 second mark. If British police can disarm a man with a machete, Miami PD should be able to subdue a guy with a ****ing stick. No ****ing excuses.

These people called the police for help to transport a mental patient to the hospital. It would be nice if someone else were available to handle that task, but legally they must rely on law enforcement to transport patients to the hospital. How many times do we have to hear a mother say "If I had known they were going to kill my child, I would have never, ever called them"

To Protect and Serve...
 
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#4,467
#4,467
BartW said:
You completely missed the point. Did you watch the video?
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Of course I watched the video. And what do I see? A bunch of neutered British cops that have nothing other than a baton and a stern voice.

I'm not sure that's the pattern we want to make of our police. Because if there ever was a situation that warranted a Taser or pepper spray, that machete guy was it. Or a LTL shotgun round. Or a FN 303.

And 30 cops? Really? Does it take 30 cops to bring down one guy? Here in the real world and in the United States we'd call that "overkill."

Oh, I'm not sure I'd want to use the British pattern for our police.
 
#4,468
#4,468
Grand Vol said:
Of course I watched the video. And what do I see? A bunch of neutered British cops that have nothing other than a baton and a stern voice.

I'm not sure that's the pattern we want to make of our police. Because if there ever was a situation that warranted a Taser or pepper spray, that machete guy was it. Or a LTL shotgun round. Or a FN 303.

And 30 cops? Really? Does it take 30 cops to bring down one guy? Here in the real world and in the United States we'd call that "overkill."

Oh, I'm not sure I'd want to use the British pattern for our police.
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Taser, pepper spray, LTL shotgun round, FN 303, 30 Brits with batons -- those are all better options than killing the mentally ill civilian who you are supposed to protect and serve.
 
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#4,469
#4,469
BartW said:
Taser, pepper spray, LTL shotgun round, FN 303, 30 Brits with batons -- those are all better options than killing the mentally ill civilian who you are supposed to protect and serve.
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Before you go all out thinking I'm your traditional JBT who desires to kill anyone who questions the authority, read this thread and see where I stand on some of these things.

Your eyes just might be opened and you wouldn't use the term "protect and serve" like a punchline.
 
#4,470
#4,470
Grand Vol said:
Before you go all out thinking I'm your traditional JBT who desires to kill anyone who questions the authority, read this thread and see where I stand on some of these things.

Your eyes just might be opened and you wouldn't use the term "protect and serve" like a punchline.
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I thought you were one of the more reasonable posters; that's one reason I'm so outraged.

The way cops treat the mentally ill is awful. Granted, the way society treats the mental illness is awful. But that is no excuse for bad police work. I don't understand why you defend it.

Lethal force should be the last resort. And by last resort I don't mean "Plan B". We don't have to be perfect like the Brits but we could try a lot harder.
 
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#4,471
#4,471
In your opinion, what level of danger is acceptable before you must resort to lethal force? How many civilian lives is a cop life worth?
 
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#4,472
#4,472
BartW said:
In your opinion, what level of danger is acceptable before you must resort to lethal force? How many civilian lives is a cop life worth?
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If an individual has the intent, capability and opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm or death on yourself or another individual, that's grounds for the use of deadly force.

Now ask yourself this, how many cops have to get killed before you'd be happy the numbers evened out?
 
#4,473
#4,473
Grand Vol said:
If an individual has the intent, capability and opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm or death on yourself or another individual, that's grounds for the use of deadly force.

Now ask yourself this, how many cops have to get killed before you'd be happy the numbers evened out?
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How do you assess the intent or capability of a manic patient? "Opportunity" is everywhere.

Perhaps we can figure out how to minimize the total number of accidental deaths in these encounters. Ideally that accidental death rate would be even for cops and civilians, IMO.

How many civilian lives do you believe cop lives are worth?
 
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#4,474
#4,474
BartW said:
How do you assess the intent or capability of a manic patient? "Opportunity" is everywhere.

Perhaps we can figure out how to minimize the total number of accidental deaths in these encounters. Ideally that accidental death rate would be even for cops and civilians, IMO.

How many civilian lives do you believe cop lives are worth?
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Let's see.

Intent - Lunging at an officer
Capability - Having a screwdriver in one's hands while lunging at said officer
Opportunity - Being less than five feet away from said officer when lunging.

Serious bodily harm - Loss of eyesight, limb(s), major irreparable trauma or that harm which could lead to:
Death - Need I explain this one.

The Atlanta situation, if the details are correct in the article(s) about it, is one that will very likely go to a grand jury. And should. I also disagreed with the decision in New York concerning Garner. I think that one should have gone to trial. I think the Ferguson situation was the right call.

But you'd rather disarm police and let thugs like Michael Brown assault them until they are seriously injured or dead. Or allow one to get stabbed in the neck by a mentally ill person that suddenly got violent.

So again, how many cops have to be seriously injured or dead by the hands of the criminal element before you are happy? The only, and I stress only, reason the British police are without firearms is because of the strict gun control laws in that nation in particular. Are you suggesting the same method to be used here? Unilateral disarmament of the civilian population in the United States?
 
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