No American Flag?

#176
#176
FLVOL_79 said:
Had to be interesting research. My thesis (and my next one) are pretty much on how the government is dumb because their managers are dumb. I churched the title up a bit more though.
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:eek:lol::eek:lol::eek:lol: Please let us know when you publish. i am dying to read it.
 
#179
#179
CSpindizzy said:
What technology was making slavery undesirable? What indications were there that it was winding down and the need was declining?

Slavery was embedded in our being. Expansion west and admission of new states all were driven by the issue of slavery. SCOTUS cases, the most controversial in our nation's history, were driven by slavery. The wealth of people in the south was based on slavery. Look at the census. Real vs. personal property was judged by slaves. Those who owned slaves sank their investment into purchasing human beings. Are you telling me sinking a few generations of my family fortune would have greeted an end to slavery with warm embrace? Seeing that the Confederate constitution upped the ante with even more concrete language on slavery leads me to believe little intention of it ending any time soon. Reading the ordinances of secession and seeing slavery was the driving force I am not inclined to just blow off slavery as a periphery issue in secession and the war.
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The tractor and combine would have ended slavery. Just as industrialization ended it in the north.
 
#180
#180
CSpindizzy said:
What technology was making slavery undesirable? What indications were there that it was winding down and the need was declining?
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It's an economic certainty that technology makes slavery inefficient. If a job requires 1000 men, and then you invent a cotton gin, now the job only requires a fraction of the workers. Eventually there are enough innovations that labor isn't a much smaller need, and it's more expensive just to house, feed, and manage slaves 168 hours a week than it is to hire a few workers for 40 hours a week.

Incentives for skilled workers are much more effective at increasing productivity. We can argue all day about when slavery would have ended because of technology, but there is no arguing that it wouldn't have happened. It's just a matter of time.
 
#181
#181
Again, what is the incentive for me to free thousands of dollars worth of a few generations of investment? How many generations would have to pass to have one decide to just let go of their "401K"? Were there going to be "trade a slave for a tractor" programs?

Slaves typically built their own housing and grew their own food - if they were fortunate, they got scraps and leftovers from the main house. As far as manage, a superintendent is a superintendent...whether over a paid staff or slaves the need for one is still there. Can't afford a super? The owners did that and often the job was handled by the sons when old enough. Slaves were an investment - the labor gave a high rate of return and them having children provided bonuses in that investment. Unless there was a means of cashing out I do not see an entire sector of an economy just willingly giving up slaves. Would the United States or the states themselves raise the funds for compensation which was done in the British Empire's abolition law?
 
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#182
#182
CSpindizzy said:
Again, what is the incentive for me to free thousands of dollars worth of a few generations of investment? How many generations would have to pass to have one decide to just let go of their "401K"? Were there going to be "trade a slave for a tractor" programs?

Slaves typically built their own housing and grew their own food - if they were fortunate, they got scraps and leftovers from the main house. As far as manage, a superintendent is a superintendent...whether over a paid staff or slaves the need for one is still there. Can't afford a super? The owners did that and often the job was handled by the sons when old enough. Slaves were an investment - the labor gave a high rate of return and them having children provided bonuses in that investment. Unless there was a means of cashing out I do not see an entire sector of an economy just willingly giving up slaves. Would the United States or the states themselves raise the funds for compensation which was done in the British Empire's abolition law?
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Yes they built and maintained their housing and grew their own food. Land that could be rented or used for increased production with the purchase of a few machines.
 
#183
#183
hog88 said:
Yes they built and maintained their housing and grew their own food. Land that could be rented or used for increased production with the purchase of a few machines.
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You just aren't getting it. Are they cashing out their slaves? Letting them go for free? They have a low to no cost means of producing a massive profit. What do they do with this? If we fix say a timeframe of 1860, how many years before combines/tractors are produced? How many years before they are sold in the south on a large scale? What happens to their slaves as far as recouping the loss?

So two different concepts here - what incentive is there to drop slaves as an investment IF they are not reimbursed and how long does it take for the means to replace the production levels to find its way on a large scale down South.
 
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#184
#184
hog88 said:
You may be right, we'll never know. I still do not understand what the point of this exercise was. What were you trying to prove?
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That he believes like most sheeple that the war was over slavery and not truly a war of northern aggression.

It wasn't, therefore, the flag means more to Southerners than pro-slavery.
 
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#185
#185
82_VOL_83 said:
That he believes like most sheeple that the war was over slavery and not truly a war of northern aggression.

It wasn't, therefore, the flag means more to Southerners than pro-slavery.
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So all those ordinances of secession and the Confederate constitution's mentions of slavery were just random commentary with no value?
 
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#186
#186
n_huffhines said:
It's an economic certainty that technology makes slavery inefficient. If a job requires 1000 men, and then you invent a cotton gin, now the job only requires a fraction of the workers. Eventually there are enough innovations that labor isn't a much smaller need, and it's more expensive just to house, feed, and manage slaves 168 hours a week than it is to hire a few workers for 40 hours a week.

Incentives for skilled workers are much more effective at increasing productivity. We can argue all day about when slavery would have ended because of technology, but there is no arguing that it wouldn't have happened. It's just a matter of time.
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One simply had to look at today's workforce to understand your points.
 
#187
#187
CSpindizzy said:
You just aren't getting it. Are they cashing out their slaves? Letting them go for free? They have a low to no cost means of producing a massive profit. What do they do with this? If we fix say a timeframe of 1860, how many years before combines/tractors are produced? How many years before they are sold in the south on a large scale? What happens to their slaves as far as recouping the loss?

So two different concepts here - what incentive is there to drop slaves as an investment IF they are not reimbursed and how long does it take for the means to replace the production levels to find its way on a large scale down South.
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You just aren't getting it.....McD's is putting in kiosks. They are freeing their slaves!
 
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#191
#191
Given the average food service worker that I have seen, it's rather pathetic that they are as similar as they are.
 
#192
#192
82_VOL_83 said:
Pretty sure that it is pathetic that you don't see the comparison.
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Still waiting for an answer to my question.

Forced servitude, no wages, no rights, no voice. Run out the door and you get shot, beaten, and who knows what else. Yep. This is the typical McDonalds employee of today.
 
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#193
#193
hog88 said:
Yes they built and maintained their housing and grew their own food. Land that could be rented or used for increased production with the purchase of a few machines.
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I just spent a little while consulting the oracle (Google) re:when farming became mechanized to any appreciable degree. That is, when did tractors begin to replace humans and horses for plowing, discing, planting, and harvesting crops, especially cotton. Only then, it seems, would it have been economically advantageous to replace slaves with more efficient machines. According to my extremely extensive (< 1 hour) research, that could not have occurred until well into the 20th century or at least 50 years after the CW. More like 75 years. Does anyone have better and different research than that?
 
#195
#195
n_huffhines said:
It's an economic certainty that technology makes slavery inefficient. If a job requires 1000 men, and then you invent a cotton gin, now the job only requires a fraction of the workers. Eventually there are enough innovations that labor isn't a much smaller need, and it's more expensive just to house, feed, and manage slaves 168 hours a week than it is to hire a few workers for 40 hours a week.

Incentives for skilled workers are much more effective at increasing productivity. We can argue all day about when slavery would have ended because of technology, but there is no arguing that it wouldn't have happened. It's just a matter of time.
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Lots of good posts in this thread Huff....&#128077;
 
#197
#197
n_huffhines said:
It's an economic certainty that technology makes slavery inefficient. If a job requires 1000 men, and then you invent a cotton gin, now the job only requires a fraction of the workers. Eventually there are enough innovations that labor isn't a much smaller need, and it's more expensive just to house, feed, and manage slaves 168 hours a week than it is to hire a few workers for 40 hours a week.

Incentives for skilled workers are much more effective at increasing productivity. We can argue all day about when slavery would have ended because of technology, but there is no arguing that it wouldn't have happened. It's just a matter of time.
Click to expand...

This is just wrong in regards to the cotton gin. Apparently, the invention of the cotton gin in the 1790s led to a vast increase in slavery in the American south.

Civil War History: How the Cotton Gin Contributed to the Civil War

Cotton and African-American Life [ushistory.org]

Cotton gin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As to other significant labor-saving inventions in agriculture, like tractors and cotton picking machines, I can't find any reference to those being viable until 50 to 75 years after the CW. Would these inventions have decreased slavery or, as in the case of the cotton gin, increased slavery?
 
#198
#198
Danl said:
This is just wrong in regards to the cotton gin. Apparently, the invention of the cotton gin in the 1790s led to a vast increase in slavery in the American south.

Civil War History: How the Cotton Gin Contributed to the Civil War

Cotton and African-American Life [ushistory.org]

Cotton gin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As to other significant labor-saving inventions in agriculture, like tractors and cotton picking machines, I can't find any reference to those being viable until 50 to 75 years after the CW. Would these inventions have decreased slavery or, as in the case of the cotton gin, increased slavery?
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Again I'll ask. Were 600,000 plus lives lost worth it, even if it would have taken another 50-75 years?
 
#200
#200
Plantations holding large amounts of slaves may find a decrease in need of those amounts but the need for slaves would still exist. And again I wait for the explanation on how the willing release of slaves would transpire...or even the compulsory one. How does one part with thousands of dollars in 1860's value without compensation?
 
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