Ukraine Protests

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Can you prove me otherwise? Can you prove that the majority of these "separatists" are locals? Can you prove Russia is not involved? Can you prove Russia has not broken any agreements regarding Ukraine? I wait for any answer to any of these questions. Answers may involve you getting out from behind your keyboard and even venturing out to the real world. When you've been there and seen this firsthand, perhaps you would have even an inkling of a clue. Until then you sit back hiding behind RT links and regurgitating one sided spin. Before you tell me to quit talking out of something you may want to get your head out of yours....

I'm on the record as saying that I wouldn't doubt that the Russians are not in some way assisting the rebels. I just don't know to what extent... but neither do you know. And if you did know, you would have proof.

But here is the interesting part. When the Ukrainians and Americans immediately make these declarations and claims about tanks rolling through, or heavy weaponry or such, it is either an unsubstantiated declaration (no proof), or based off of something on social media. Hell, Geoffrey Pyatt released a tweet over the weekend of a grainy, b&w photo that was supposed to be Russian artillery. Or, even worse, the Ukrainians and Americans just make up s**t... like the Ukrainians fooling Jim Inhofe with photos from 2008 in Georgia. It just gets to the point where the Ukrainians and Americans have credibility issues.

Meanwhile, what's tantamount to the Zapruder film of this entire fiasco is dismissed immediately when we hear members of the State Department plotting and scheming about who will be a part of the new Ukrainian govt before the coup.
 
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I'm on the record as saying that I wouldn't doubt that the Russians are not in some way assisting the rebels. I just don't know to what extent... but neither do you know. And if you did know, you would have proof.

But here is the interesting part. When the Ukrainians an Americans immediately make these declarations and claims about tanks rolling through, or heavy weaponry or such, it is either an unsubstantiated declaration (no proof), or based off of something on social media. Hell, Geoffrey Pyatt released a tweet over the weekend of a grainy, b&w photo that was supposed to be Russian artillery. Or, even worse, the Ukrainians and Americans just make up s**t... like the Ukrainians fooling Jim Inhofe with photos from 2008 in Georgia. It just gets to the point where the Ukrainians and Americans have credibility issues.

Meanwhile, what's tantamount to the Zapruder film of this entire fiasco is dismissed immediately when we hear members of the State Department plotting and scheming about who will be a part of the new Ukrainian govt before the coup.

Preach my brother!
 
It is amazing to me that you all would say that we would ignore information when you all essentially ignore an audio taped confession with Pyatt and Nuland. It would be tantamount to dismissing a murder confession and throwing away the murder weapon.

Confession of what exactly? Preference of who we liked in the government? That the same preference is who was slated to be in that spot whether we liked it or not? Preference of someone with economic and political credibility AFTER Maidan happened? I keep looking for the CIA guy on the grassy knoll forcing Yanukovich to tank the country and then cause him to unleash Berkut on unarmed people. If all the evidence you have of a US coup is a phone call about things AFTER the fact, you have nothing. Your whole conspiracy is bankrupt. To somehow equate actions in response to murder the actual murder is sheer stupidity. Somehow the crime scene investigator gets accused of murder.
 
Confession of what exactly? Preference of who we liked in the government? That the same preference is who was slated to be in that spot whether we liked it or not? Preference of someone with economic and political credibility AFTER Maidan happened? I keep looking for the CIA guy on the grassy knoll forcing Yanukovich to tank the country and then cause him to unleash Berkut on unarmed people. If all the evidence you have of a US coup is a phone call about things AFTER the fact, you have nothing. Your whole conspiracy is bankrupt. To somehow equate actions in response to murder the actual murder is sheer stupidity. Somehow the crime scene investigator gets accused of murder.
No, not after Maidan... it was weeks before when that was taped.
 
I'm on the record as saying that I wouldn't doubt that the Russians are not in some way assisting the rebels. I just don't know to what extent... but neither do you know. And if you did know, you would have proof.

But here is the interesting part. When the Ukrainians and Americans immediately make these declarations and claims about tanks rolling through, or heavy weaponry or such, it is either an unsubstantiated declaration (no proof), or based off of something on social media. Hell, Geoffrey Pyatt released a tweet over the weekend of a grainy, b&w photo that was supposed to be Russian artillery. Or, even worse, the Ukrainians and Americans just make up s**t... like the Ukrainians fooling Jim Inhofe with photos from 2008 in Georgia. It just gets to the point where the Ukrainians and Americans have credibility issues.

Meanwhile, what's tantamount to the Zapruder film of this entire fiasco is dismissed immediately when we hear members of the State Department plotting and scheming about who will be a part of the new Ukrainian govt before the coup.

Wouldn't doubt? Where are all these Russian "volunteers" with top of the line gear coming from? Are they quitting their jobs in Russia and doing this for free? Where are the arms coming from? Are they looting Russian military bases to get recently produced equipment not exported? Do you think an FSB colonel who is very close to Putin and shows up in "trouble spots" is doing this out of boredom? The DNR and LNR government was set up by well known, government connected Russian fascists. T-72B3's and Tornado-S's pop up across the border. Do you think Russia just allowed equipment to walk off base into another country? They are not shipping these to anyone else. No one can buy these. But somehow this gets lost in Ukraine. Why are guys like Motorola (Russian citizens and members of the Russian army) leading battalions in Ukraine? Does Russia just allow entire units to walk across the border taking Russian state military property with them? Why has Russia signed agreements to close the border but refuse to do so? The questions go on and on. And you keep saying you wouldn't doubt even with fact laying at your feet.

You keep harping on the "coup". Maidan already happened. You keep insinuating this call as evidence when all the call was discussing was what Yanukovich himself was already discussing as well. If Nuland's call was spelling out a coup Yanukovich was an accessory to the murder you claim since he was saying the same thing weeks before this call was made public. The US was involved with the discussion and was merely stating their preference. Again, seeing the fact Nuland and Pyatt were basically in agreement with what Yanukovich was already discussing hardly makes this a coup. Nothing to see. Purely Russian troll drivel that keeps being dug up just like the term Nazi.
 
No, not after Maidan... it was weeks before when that was taped.

While the heaviest part was taking place in Feb 2014, Maidan was already in play back in November/December 2013. I was in Latvia until the first week of December and then went to Kyiv shortly after in mid-December. Avideo for reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya2elsR5s5s

Yanukovich publicly offered Yatsenyuk the position of Prime Minister on January 25th. Discussions had been going on for days before. The Nuland call is supposedly dated January 28th. Simple chronological deduction shows we were walking into an existing situation and NOT leading one. Again, nothing to see here.
 
While the heaviest part was taking place in Feb 2014, Maidan was already in play back in November/December 2013. I was in Latvia until the first week of December and then went to Kyiv shortly after in mid-December. Avideo for reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya2elsR5s5s

Yanukovich publicly offered Yatsenyuk the position of Prime Minister on January 25th. Discussions had been going on for days before. The Nuland call is supposedly dated January 28th. Simple chronological deduction shows we were walking into an existing situation and NOT leading one. Again, nothing to see here.

Interesting.

Nice to have a boots on the ground (or were boots on the ground) perspective like you've had.
 
Wouldn't doubt? Where are all these Russian "volunteers" with top of the line gear coming from? Are they quitting their jobs in Russia and doing this for free?

Possibly... we had an American do it for the Ukrainian side.

"Only" American fighter within Kiev forces dies in battle in E. Ukraine

The only American known to have joined a volunteer unit within the Ukrainian military, fighting the anti-government forces in the country’s east, has been killed in action, authorities confirm.

The killed fighter is Mark Paslawsky, a New York-born 55-year-old investment banker and US army veteran who took Ukrainian citizenship just before joining the Donbas battalion - a volunteer unit fighting alongside Kiev troops - in April. He adopted codename ‘Franko’ there.


american-ukraine-dies-battle.si.jpg
 
American weapons outside of a nuke will not make a difference in this civil war!

These Ukrainians are much like our Vietnam vets....they don't want to be there....it's pretty simple! They don't want to be there...

And you know this...how?
 
Where are the arms coming from? Are they looting Russian military bases to get recently produced equipment not exported?

Damn, you know that the Russians have had a naval base in Crimea and the border between Ukraine and Russia is porous. There are plenty of places they could get the weapons.


Do you think an FSB colonel who is very close to Putin and shows up in "trouble spots" is doing this out of boredom?
Again, I'm not denying that the Russians are not involved. Where we are going to butt heads at is in what degree and what level. If you are going to make a claim that troops are going back and forth between the 2 countries, it would be hard for me to dismiss that. But if you are going to ratchet up your claims and say that tanks, convoys and heavy artillery are rolling in, then how easy would it be to prove that or back up that claim with not just satellite images, but with drone images that are crystal clear, HD color pics or video? But no... instead, we get big claims, and Cracker Jack box proof. They release info on social media or have us rely on Facebook or Twitter for info and instagram photos from the 1970s showing a grainy b&w image. Why not present your case in a more professional, structured manner? Because they don't have any proof. I mean really, if Russia was flooding in equipment at the level that you all claim, there would be mountainous volumes of evidence... instead, Jim Inhofe is getting 2008 photos from Ashton Kutcher and the like, getting Punk'd.

You keep harping on the "coup". Maidan already happened.

Look, lets not play. I'm talking about the events that happened around the 21st-22nd of February where the govt was overthrown and the protesters were fired upon. That Nuland/Pyatt tape was before then. I'm not talking about the demonstrations in the months leading up to those events, and you know that.

You keep insinuating this call as evidence when all the call was discussing was what Yanukovich himself was already discussing as well.

The protests (before the Maidan Massacre) were forcing Yanukovich to have to calm the situation by agreeing to put Yats in some kind of position of power. You make it as though Yanukovich just woke up one day and had a case of random altruism or generosity. No, he was being forced to do so under the conditions.
 
That's just it... there is no telling where this will take us. And you don't know, either. I'm saying we don't need to be provoking or escalating matters because things can get out of control.

I was referring to the Ukrainian fighters not wanting to be there.

But if Putin is half as smart as you think he is, there will be no further escalation. And don't start in on that nonsense about a nuclear first strike again. I hate to prove you wrong each time you do.
 

Are you seriously showing this as fact?

1)$5 billion investment in democracy spread out over a 24 year period for party building, organization, etc. is proof of the US behind this?? Already debated this. Fail.

2)Yatsenyuk supported by American institutions - proof that support of a candidate makes the US guilty of being behind a crisis? I never knew support expressed on a website makes someone complicit in a crisis. Fail.

3)See previous posts. If this call means the US was involved in a coup, then Yanukovich was involved in his own coup since his conversations on the matter were pre-Nuland call. Simple timeline has Yanukovich talking about this move before we did. I guess he was working for DC. Fail.

4)John McCain, failed US Presidential candidate and US Senator as well as former prisoner of war of a totalitarian regime stands before a massive crowd of peaceful protesters supporting them and somehow the US is behind the crisis. Odd since he's been trying to get weapons to Ukraine and failed. But he was a tool to cause all of this.....sure. Fail.

5)A documentary company with ties to films on democratic movements around the world makes a warm, fuzzy video about a Ukrainian female talking about Maidan.....US coup fingerprints....Fail.

6)Somehow peaceful protesters getting fed up with being beaten and shot and finally getting mad and fighting back from unlawful actions are supposed to be in the wrong. I guess every single independence movement in world history should all hang their head in shame. How dare unarmed peacefully assembled protesters who are beaten and killed stand up against illegal actions. Obama recognizing how they were peaceful somehow makes the US complicit in the crisis. Again, fail.

7)Odd that the person making this video would accuse us of supporting actions counter to the Ukrainian constitution and law. I guess this person ignored the illegal elections and seizure by Russia of Crimea prior to Obama supporting Yatsenyuk. Amazing how all this talk about unconstitutional actions and the US support but the convenient overlooking of how Crimea was stolen. The elections there as well as Donetsk and Luhansk were not by Ukrainian constitutional specifications. Does this mean we can say Russia is proved to be a part of the crisis? As for kidnapping and jailing political opponents, did the author of this forget Timoshenko and Yushchenko? Does all of the actions prior to Maidan matter? I think this is more indicative of issues with a system rather than US complicity. I would like to know who the people arrested were. Perhaps they were the many who were connected with the Yanukovich government guilty of corruption. The video's author really didn't bother to examine that though.

8)CIA director's visit when Russia already stole Crimea and was working on the SE of Ukraine means the US is responsible for the crisis? Nevermind who all from Russia was already in Ukraine. But we won't say Russia was complicit though. Nevermind the US concern over an imploding Ukraine.

9)Who benefits from the crisis? Seeing how the price of oil and gas have dropped and knowing how the cost to produce makes it more difficult for domestic fuel to get out the door, this is not as easy as it looks. To date, the US still has not benefited from this. As for Putin's deal, this deal is what caused the crisis in confidence for Yanukovich. He pledged toward the EU. Had he not lied and turned toward his master's deal none of this would have happened. As for the snipers...somehow the existence of snipers around the world implicate the US. Apparently, the US is the world's sniper producer and exporter?

This video made me more likely to reverse this claim and put more blame on Russia if any outside country gets blamed. Pacer, the more you post the more damage to the cause.
 
American weapons outside of a nuke will not make a difference in this civil war!

These Ukrainians are much like our Vietnam vets....they don't want to be there....it's pretty simple! They don't want to be there...

There are a few that say just cut off the drunk Russian east. That is true. But most do want to fight. They just don't want to fight the old Soviet way....three guys to a rifle. If the guy with the rifle falls one of the other two picks it up and moves on. If they only have sticks to fight with, they will choose to stay home. Give them guns and this changes. There have been decent sized rallies and movements in the West of people asking the US and EU for weapons.
 
There are a few that say just cut off the drunk Russian east. That is true. But most do want to fight. They just don't want to fight the old Soviet way....three guys to a rifle. If the guy with the rifle falls one of the other two picks it up and moves on. If they only have sticks to fight with, they will choose to stay home. Give them guns and this changes. There have been decent sized rallies and movements in the West of people asking the US and EU for weapons.

I don't believe this! I've seen reports ghat there were enough soviet era weapons to support 2 million men.

I'll find the link....if not tonight, tomorrow.
 
I don't believe this! I've seen reports ghat there were enough soviet era weapons to support 2 million men.

I'll find the link....if not tonight, tomorrow.

The main point he is trying to make is that Soviet era weapons suck.
 
I don't believe this! I've seen reports ghat there were enough soviet era weapons to support 2 million men.

I'll find the link....if not tonight, tomorrow.

Is this before or after Obama and Dick Lugar helped the Ukraine destroy them?
 
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