Ukraine Protests

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#8,002
#8,002
Rasputin_Vol said:
Would Ukraine be better off today joining the EU or not?
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Hard to say what could have been. If we go with the thought of Yanukovich never intending to keep his promise we would never know. If he did say 'yes' and Russia had the same attitude as they do publicly now of having a problem with this, would the same crisis still be happening? I'd like to think had Viktor kept his promise that got him elected we would NOT have this war going on right now. I doubt NATO would have happened. And there was no guarantee the EU would have happened. Ukraine was only going for visa, travel, and free trade zone first. Membership to the EU takes a while and takes their approval. Ukraine probably would have had a few years to go before they were accepted...not to mention their economy meet the standard of acceptance. Stupidity plunged a nation into war. Putin took advantage of the situation and now has his own nation dealing with severe hardships. 'What could have been' is 'we'll never know' and now millions of people are dealing with the consequences.
 
#8,007
#8,007
Said this a year ago...

Grand Vol said:
Give it up. Your original post was about this absurd idea that France, Germany and Russia were going to team up to be this incredible alliance that was going to counter the US on the world stage. Now of course you are grasping at straws after being told how absurd that idea was and would never happen since the Germans and Russians do NOT like each other enough to enter into some pact like this. You completely ignore the historical animosity of those two people.

Trade relations are one thing as it's been going on even when the Russians were staring down tank barrels at the Fulda Gap at the West Germans. German citizen acceptance of the Russian annexation of the Crimea is something else, yet again entirely unrelated to an alliance.

What point are you going to try to link in next? The fact that Mercedes cars are popular in Russia, hence they will be in an alliance soon?
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Rasputin_Vol said:
Just one point to clarify, I don't think France is in the mix. China, Germany and Russia are who I am mainly focusing on. Lets get that clear first.

Again, time is on my side and things are developing. Get your laughs in now and savor the moments while you still can, though.
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You win the internet... although, I didn't think France would roll this quickly.

Rasputin_Vol said:
Get your laughs in now and savor the moments while you still can, though.
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Who's laughing now?
 
#8,008
#8,008
Rasputin_Vol said:
Why would they give them to Ukraine now? The peaces deal has been signed. Time for them to turn the page.
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Considering what happens with these two regions according to the peace deal, why are Russians still fighting and killing? If all of this remains part of Ukraine why still keep attacking? You would not keep fighting to gain more territory unless you knew failure of the agreement would allow you to keep pressing on. The Russians are bent on wiping out Debaltseve for what?
 
#8,009
#8,009
So, wait, are you saying this little Minsk conference equates to France, Germany, and Russia teaming up to counter the US on the world stage?
 
#8,010
#8,010
An interesting question is if everyone was down with a ceasefire, why didn't they make it effective immediately?
 
#8,012
#8,012
Rasputin_Vol said:
Now that is where I disagree. Germany could very easily cooperate with Russia. But I don't see China breaking away from Russia to unite with the US and Japan. The US and Japan will just be allowed to waste away as their economies implode.
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Grand Vol said:
Again, you have no clue about the animosity between the German and Russian peoples.

If Merkel was to suggest such a thing, she would be tossed out on her ear. Even if she was to enter negotiations, the Bundestag would never go along with it.
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I'm not going to get my laughs in just yet. I got one more shoe that has to drop before I can celebrate. If France hands over the Mistral war ships, you guys are going to have a lot of explaining (and soul searching) to do.

#WrongSideOfHistory
#PivotEast
 
#8,013
#8,013
Velo Vol said:
An interesting question is if everyone was down with a ceasefire, why didn't they make it effective immediately?
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Poroshenko wanted it. Minsk I did this. Poroshenko wanted that enforced. Putin wanted the delay. Not sure if you saw the news stories claiming Poroshenko 'stormed out' or not. He didn't storm out. He made a call to his Defense chiefs. A few tweets right after this put the delay and his call together to deduce he was telling his people to brace for it. Giving Putin and Russian forces over two more days and hearing the threats against Debaltseve, he knew this meant bad news for those on the frontlines.

Again, if this agreement means Ukraine stays intact why the continued fighting? What purpose would it serve to keep on killing and shelling if those artificial front lines meant nothing? Just smells like they are either trying their best to break morale and discredit Poroshenko with a failure in Debaltseve or they know this fails and will keep going as long as they can.
 
#8,014
#8,014
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm not going to get my laughs in just yet. I got one more shoe that has to drop before I can celebrate. If France hands over the Mistral war ships, you guys are going to have a lot of explaining (and soul searching) to do.

#WrongSideOfHistory
#PivotEast
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Not really. Just means the French have no spine.
 
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#8,016
#8,016
Rasputin_Vol said:
What about the Germans?
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No answer to my question? Are you saying Minsk is some indication of these nations working together to counter US influence?

I can tell you the Germans have no interest in moving towards Russia. Merkel has learned her lesson that Putin cannot be trusted. Thanks to his involvement in Ukraine and still insisting Russia is not as well as the sanctions, Germany has looked elsewhere for filling the economic gap. Plus, Putin has his people whipped up into a frenzy they would not buy western goods if they found their way back into the stores if sanctions ended. Same with France. Whether Mistrals made it to Russia or not, the West sees no credible partner in Putin. If by some miracle things cleared up in Ukraine and sanctions dropped, it would not be like it was before the sanctions. Ships have sailed.
 
#8,019
#8,019
CSpindizzy said:
No answer to my question? Are you saying Minsk is some indication of these nations working together to counter US influence?

I can tell you the Germans have no interest in moving towards Russia. Merkel has learned her lesson that Putin cannot be trusted. Thanks to his involvement in Ukraine and still insisting Russia is not as well as the sanctions, Germany has looked elsewhere for filling the economic gap. Plus, Putin has his people whipped up into a frenzy they would not buy western goods if they found their way back into the stores if sanctions ended. Same with France. Whether Mistrals made it to Russia or not, the West sees no credible partner in Putin. If by some miracle things cleared up in Ukraine and sanctions dropped, it would not be like it was before the sanctions. Ships have sailed.
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Time and the facts are on my side.
 
#8,021
#8,021
Rasputin_Vol said:
Go back and read the discussions from a year ago to get the proper context.
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Just answer my question. And what discussion? Which topic and post? Starting when?

Reading between the lines you seem to be giddy and ready for some "I told you so" and potentially based on Mistrals being handed over. Not sure Mistrals being handed over is anything but an indication of anything but sanctions being over.

On another note Russia is already saying Savchenko is not included in this deal. Step by step this is unraveling. I do find it funny that Tornado-S launchers were included in the agreement to remove. These are only made for Russian armed forces. So does this mean Putin signed off that Russia is involved?
 
#8,025
#8,025
Rasputin_Vol said:
Did you see any British or American involvment in these negotiations?
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Where was Merkel right before she went to Minsk? Do you not think that was on purpose? Do you somehow think a major alliance and security partner had no say in this? Do you honestly think we were uninformed spectators here?
 
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