Ukraine Protests

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#7,651
#7,651
Walkin in da club with your boys like

B9lhOdKIAAEN9sp.jpg
 
#7,652
#7,652
@CSpindizzy

Since, you have some interest in churches, maybe you can speak to the religious angle.

First, I'm not sure what the real difference is between the Orthodox Church--Kyiv and the Orthodox Church--Moscow is. Are there substantive theological differences? Or is it more of a regional/cultural thing.

I've seen news tidbit suggesting the Orthodox Church--Moscow is being politicized--church leaders speaking on political issues, Putin using church values to buoy his support.

How much of a role is religion playing in Ukraine? Is the predominate church uniting the population? Or is it mostly a non-factor?
 
#7,653
#7,653
I would like to hear Cspindizzy and Pacer both give their version of events in Ukraine, like a timeline. Don't respond to the other person, just present what you believe happened. Start as far back in time as you like.

LET THE DEBATE.
 
#7,654
#7,654
It is more regional/cultural than anything. There are a few very minor differences.

Kirill who is head of the church in Russia, is VERY political. He has a KGB connection background. Pretty much any of the hierarchy of the church that existed during the USSR had some KGB connection. Being from St Petersburg his connection to Putin goes way back. He has NEVER spoken out against Putin and typically follows a major policy move of Putin's with his own speech. The ROC is merely an extension of Putin. One mistake Putin has said the Soviet Union made was not fully taking advantage of the ROC and its grip on the people. He knows how people are very devout and instead of going the Communist route of fighting it he has used it as a means of reaching the people and playing on their devotion. Not to generalize but most practicing Orthodox in Russia are very superstitious and slightly paranoid about certain mores in culture. Kirill has delivered on his part to use the ROC as a means of message to the older populace.

Ukraine is similar as far as structure. Difference is that the head there is not a Poroshenko extension. He is far more independent. The people are more nominal than Russians. There are more evangelical, nominal, and non practicing in Ukraine than Russia. While Russia can use religion as a means of uniting a decent amount of the population, Ukraine depends more on nationalism than anything else. Religion does have a part but smaller.
 
#7,655
#7,655
CSpindizzy said:
It is more regional/cultural than anything. There are a few very minor differences.

Kirill who is head of the church in Russia, is VERY political. He has a KGB connection background. Pretty much any of the hierarchy of the church that existed during the USSR had some KGB connection. Being from St Petersburg his connection to Putin goes way back. He has NEVER spoken out against Putin and typically follows a major policy move of Putin's with his own speech. The ROC is merely an extension of Putin. One mistake Putin has said the Soviet Union made was not fully taking advantage of the ROC and its grip on the people. He knows how people are very devout and instead of going the Communist route of fighting it he has used it as a means of reaching the people and playing on their devotion. Not to generalize but most practicing Orthodox in Russia are very superstitious and slightly paranoid about certain mores in culture. Kirill has delivered on his part to use the ROC as a means of message to the older populace.

Ukraine is similar as far as structure. Difference is that the head there is not a Poroshenko extension. He is far more independent. The people are more nominal than Russians. There are more evangelical, nominal, and non practicing in Ukraine than Russia. While Russia can use religion as a means of uniting a decent amount of the population, Ukraine depends more on nationalism than anything else. Religion does have a part but smaller.
Click to expand...

John Schindler (highly suggest giving him a follow on Twitter) suggests that Putin's gambit in Ukraine is a form of Russian "Orthodox Jihad" do you agree with that view?
 
#7,656
#7,656
I have a number of issues with what's going on in Russia, but trying to scapegoat minority religions such as Jehovah's Witnesses as "foreign agents" is way up there.
 
#7,657
#7,657
CSpindizzy said:
It is more regional/cultural than anything. There are a few very minor differences.

Kirill who is head of the church in Russia, is VERY political. He has a KGB connection background. Pretty much any of the hierarchy of the church that existed during the USSR had some KGB connection. Being from St Petersburg his connection to Putin goes way back. He has NEVER spoken out against Putin and typically follows a major policy move of Putin's with his own speech. The ROC is merely an extension of Putin. One mistake Putin has said the Soviet Union made was not fully taking advantage of the ROC and its grip on the people. He knows how people are very devout and instead of going the Communist route of fighting it he has used it as a means of reaching the people and playing on their devotion. Not to generalize but most practicing Orthodox in Russia are very superstitious and slightly paranoid about certain mores in culture. Kirill has delivered on his part to use the ROC as a means of message to the older populace.

Ukraine is similar as far as structure. Difference is that the head there is not a Poroshenko extension. He is far more independent. The people are more nominal than Russians. There are more evangelical, nominal, and non practicing in Ukraine than Russia. While Russia can use religion as a means of uniting a decent amount of the population, Ukraine depends more on nationalism than anything else. Religion does have a part but smaller.
Click to expand...

how linked, officially, are the churches and governments? do the Russian leaders pick the OC leaders like the Anglicans, and does the OC 'anoint' Russian leaders? or are they formally split?
 
#7,658
#7,658
tennesseefan31 said:
I would like to hear Cspindizzy and Pacer both give their version of events in Ukraine, like a timeline. Don't respond to the other person, just present what you believe happened. Start as far back in time as you like.

LET THE DEBATE.
Click to expand...

May attempt this later, but it would take a long time..
 
#7,660
#7,660
Burhead said:
John Schindler (highly suggest giving him a follow on Twitter) suggests that Putin's gambit in Ukraine is a form of Russian "Orthodox Jihad" do you agree with that view?
Click to expand...

I can see that as part but part of a mix. It's really Putinism as its own identity. He's got an odd assortment of characters around him. Most of the people in key positions of government and the economy are KGB partners. Then he has Kirill with the ROC. Then he has these neo-fascists like Alexander Dugin, monarchists like Igor Girkin and you see outside of Russia a mix of far left like Syriza in Greece and the far right like Le Pen in France. As many times as people hate with the Putin/Hitler connections there are quite a few comparisons. The early days of National Socialism had a wide combination of socialists, communists, free market capitalists, nationalists, anti-Semites, etc. Putin has gathered this hatred of the West - economically, culturally, politically, etc. to have this grand idea of this new Eurasian empire. He is a student of history and knows why things failed for Nazi Germany and the USSR. In many ways he has succeeded in avoiding similar mistakes but then has failed with economics in Russia - it is still completely based on oil and gas. As we see now, this was an epic fail. This mistake may spur a faster movement in other areas by him. Knowing that the current constitution only allows him a little longer in power (and we've already seen how he has gotten that changed multiple times) it will be interesting to see if more aggressive attitudes are taken. Bad thing is he has used a western alliance which is a strength and turned it into a weakness. With nothing viable standing in his way, he has grown a pair far bigger than all other leaders combined. Ukraine is the Rubicon.
 
#7,662
#7,662
LouderVol said:
care to fill in the uneducated? whose these are supposed to be, where the pics were taken? and the only thing that matters was Putin photographed inside one?
Click to expand...

These are Ukrainian APCs, bought them from Britain in December I believe. Not sure where in Ukraine it was taken though. First time I think anyone has photographed them in the field.
 
#7,665
#7,665
CSpindizzy said:
It is more regional/cultural than anything. There are a few very minor differences.

Kirill who is head of the church in Russia, is VERY political. He has a KGB connection background. Pretty much any of the hierarchy of the church that existed during the USSR had some KGB connection. Being from St Petersburg his connection to Putin goes way back. He has NEVER spoken out against Putin and typically follows a major policy move of Putin's with his own speech. The ROC is merely an extension of Putin. One mistake Putin has said the Soviet Union made was not fully taking advantage of the ROC and its grip on the people. He knows how people are very devout and instead of going the Communist route of fighting it he has used it as a means of reaching the people and playing on their devotion. Not to generalize but most practicing Orthodox in Russia are very superstitious and slightly paranoid about certain mores in culture. Kirill has delivered on his part to use the ROC as a means of message to the older populace.

Ukraine is similar as far as structure. Difference is that the head there is not a Poroshenko extension. He is far more independent. The people are more nominal than Russians. There are more evangelical, nominal, and non practicing in Ukraine than Russia. While Russia can use religion as a means of uniting a decent amount of the population, Ukraine depends more on nationalism than anything else. Religion does have a part but smaller.
Click to expand...

Just one more key difference that places Putin more in league with neo-Fascism than his communist roots.
 
#7,666
#7,666
Pacer92 said:
Edit..nevermind
Click to expand...

I didn't see your post, so feel free to correct me if wrong, but, let me guess, thinking this another accusation of Russian armor in Ukraine, you initially posted how we can't tell where this was taken and how it is therefore a bunch of junk? The fact that they're apparently Ukrainian, however, concerns you not.
 
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#7,667
#7,667
Velo Vol said:
I have a number of issues with what's going on in Russia, but trying to scapegoat minority religions such as Jehovah's Witnesses as "foreign agents" is way up there.
Click to expand...

Met with a friend of mine last Friday that was a Methodist missionary in St Petersburg. The guy was more about humanitarian aid than anything else. His Russian contacts (local churches) were called into FSB interviews and told to report every single American they came into contact with. They did not list names. So the FSB laid out all of the phone records and emails to the American missionaries they dealt with. They were told to discontinue contact with the Americans or risk jail. They were told they were conspiring with foreign agents. My friend's visa was revoked and now he is doing work in Estonia. He got a temp visa to visit. He was buying groceries for a few poor families outside the city. Some of the people of the village threatened to kill him because Americans were trying to overthrow Putin and turn Russia into a den of prostitutes and drunks. He packed up and no longer goes back. This is Putin's Russia. People just trying to help the poor are considered spies. Russians now hate Americans....for what? That's right. For every single thing in Ukraine.
 
#7,668
#7,668
CSpindizzy said:
Met with a friend of mine last Friday that was a Methodist missionary in St Petersburg. The guy was more about humanitarian aid than anything else. His Russian contacts (local churches) were called into FSB interviews and told to report every single American they came into contact with. They did not list names. So the FSB laid out all of the phone records and emails to the American missionaries they dealt with. They were told to discontinue contact with the Americans or risk jail. They were told they were conspiring with foreign agents. My friend's visa was revoked and now he is doing work in Estonia. He got a temp visa to visit. He was buying groceries for a few poor families outside the city. Some of the people of the village threatened to kill him because Americans were trying to overthrow Putin and turn Russia into a den of prostitutes and drunks. He packed up and no longer goes back. This is Putin's Russia. People just trying to help the poor are considered spies. Russians now hate Americans....for what? That's right. For every single thing in Ukraine.
Click to expand...

That's Rasputin's dream country. Sad.
 
#7,669
#7,669
This is summer of 2014 in Ukraine. You have anti-Semite fascist Zakarchenko (DNR) with monarchist FSB colonel Igor Girkin (Russia) and fascist and regional troublemaker Alexander Borodai (Russia). Girkin shows up in all the trouble spots for Russia (Balkans, Transnistria, Crimea, Ukraine). Borodai usually pops up in similar places. But again Russia is not involved right?

B9l3HepIYAArqhc.jpg
 
#7,670
#7,670
CSpindizzy said:
This is summer of 2014 in Ukraine. You have anti-Semite fascist Zakarchenko (DNR) with monarchist FSB colonel Igor Girkin (Russia) and fascist and regional troublemaker Alexander Borodai (Russia). Girkin shows up in all the trouble spots for Russia (Balkans, Transnistria, Crimea, Ukraine). Borodai usually pops up in similar places. But again Russia is not involved right?

View attachment 90907
Click to expand...

With men that handsome and well-dressed, what's a woman to do in Russia?
 
#7,671
#7,671
CSpindizzy said:
This is summer of 2014 in Ukraine. You have anti-Semite fascist Zakarchenko (DNR) with monarchist FSB colonel Igor Girkin (Russia) and fascist and regional troublemaker Alexander Borodai (Russia). Girkin shows up in all the trouble spots for Russia (Balkans, Transnistria, Crimea, Ukraine). Borodai usually pops up in similar places. But again Russia is not involved right?

View attachment 90907
Click to expand...

Sleeveless shirts and blue jean jackets!

What rebels!
 
#7,675
#7,675
CSpindizzy said:
This is summer of 2014 in Ukraine. You have anti-Semite fascist Zakarchenko (DNR) with monarchist FSB colonel Igor Girkin (Russia) and fascist and regional troublemaker Alexander Borodai (Russia). Girkin shows up in all the trouble spots for Russia (Balkans, Transnistria, Crimea, Ukraine). Borodai usually pops up in similar places. But again Russia is not involved right?

View attachment 90907
Click to expand...

I thought Girkin was replaced? Heard rumors the Kremlin became displeased with him?
 
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