Ukraine Protests

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#7,301
#7,301
Are we talking about the Ukraine in here or the lizard-aliens that destroyed the Pentagon?

If the former, can anyone tell me what the hell we are classifying as "defensive weapons" and preparing to send to the "pro-US" forces over there?
 
#7,302
#7,302
The term "defensive" is relative among the policymakers. Ukraine has asked for means of countering the heavy armor and artillery used against them. Javelins are the preferred weapon of choice. Body armor, communications gear including jamming, ammunition of their standard caliber for most infantry units. Some leadership has asked for light armor and light artillery.

Their problem is the current state of their forces. Most experienced vets and members of what little military they had are prisoners or dead. Ukraine has the problem of having conscripts fighting hardened veterans coming in from Russia. Most of the ones fighting (including the Chechens) have fought in urban combat situations. Others have been in the military for some time and have at least a few years experience in tactics, etc. Ukraine has the logistics issue of basically building up a military from scratch in the middle of an ongoing war. If we give weapons we have to give training as well. This is a problem.
 
#7,303
#7,303
CSpindizzy said:
If we give weapons we have to give training as well. This is a problem.
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It does up the ante on the situation as a whole if/when we do that. Because it adds in an unpredictable element to the situation. So are advisers or training teams going to cause the situation to escalate, deescalate or remain as is. Or the more appropriate question would be is Putin expecting this kind of reaction from our political leaders?

Add US forces into the mix, even in a training and adviser role and the paradigm changes. Because it will give the Russians and the rebels pause for thought about randomly dropping fire onto a spot where there are Americans.

Of course it can also give the Russians, Putin specifically, the opportunity to see how far they can push us. US service members get killed on adviser missions and support for us being there either gets solidified or wanes in the general public.

It does present opportunities for both sides.
 
#7,304
#7,304
Putin will continue involvement regardless. He will escalate as needed. This guy's mindset has already laid out the long game. We can either go ahead and react to contain if not stop or we can give him the go-ahead and continue. He will push until he gets stopped. Ideally, he wants a land path to Crimea - not to mention the resources in the Donbas to get the shipyards working again. If he can cut across to connect Odessa and Transnistria he will keep going.

Problem is that we have commitments here. The Baltics have similar situations in ethnicity and groups in those nations already geared up to play their role. If Putin smells weakness he will continue. And not just hybrid wars. His long game includes undermining from within. Greece, Serbia, Hungary, and French leaders like Le Pen all play into his hands. Pretty sure Pegida in Germany is a Russian backed movement as well.

We can have training camps in the western areas, even in Poland that keep our advisors out of the area. We have enough surplus hardware floating around. Instead of sending it to the Middle East where it more than likely falls into the wrong hands why not send to Ukraine? Why not funnel through third parties? There are options that keep us at a distance. Right now the way things are going Ukraine loses even more territory and more people are killed. Putin gets even more bold. Poroshenko loses face. Ukrainians lose respect for the west. Poland and the Baltics may even decide to go their own way. Each passing day the situation gets deeper in fecal matter. Some are worried about escalation. Giving Putin more leverage gives him even more ground to escalate. His single resource based economy has given him limited shelf life. He will push this to escalate even if we sit back on our hands.
 
#7,307
#7,307
Gets funnier...

maxresdefault_12.jpg


What Happened to Poroshenko's Collection of Russian Dog Tags? - Russia Insider

The sequel is that the Russians have asked for copies of these documents. According to Russian media reports, the Ukrainians have failed to provide them. The Russians therefore say that the passports Poroshenko so flamboyantly waved about during his speech are proof of nothing since they have not been authenticated.

Even if these documents are genuine, five passports and one military ID document do not proof of an invasion make. Perhaps Poroshenko has more.

However in themselves these documents prove nothing. Many Ukrainians have Russian passports (though it is technically illegal for them to do so) and some have served in the Russian army.

Besides no one disputes that Russian volunteers, some of whom are present or former soldiers, are fighting with the rebels in the Donbass. The fact that some of them may have been carrying passports or IDs is not evidence the Russian government sent them there. On the contrary, the fact they were carrying passports and ID documents would strongly suggest otherwise. What would be the sense of letting combat soldiers carry passports when sending them into a battle in which their presence is supposed to be a secret? By contrast, it would be entirely natural for people going of their own will abroad to take their passports with them, so that they can show their passports to their own country's border control when they return home.
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#7,309
#7,309
OrangeWayOfLife said:
Momma shiz, really? And you claim credibility. Here's a picture, explain to me where the wings went, that titanium jet engines on them. Did they not make it into the building? If not they should be easily identifiable. Better yet, where's the damn plane? Look at how deep the crater is, but no wing marks.
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i might be wrong here but aren't the plane wings supposed to rip off and break up before they do major damage, i swore i read that somewhere. also a missile would not have done that type of damage. it would have made a tiny (comparitevely) hole and kept moving inside until it detonated, at which point you would have a large hole on the interior not exterior. And before you say a plane would have done more damage the pentagon was made to withstand attacks and did its job very well.

and i am not an expert of missiles but wouldn't the missile have had to have hit at a very low (almost straight) trajectory to make it that far through the rings. and again a missile penetrating the rings would not have done that much damage to the exterior.
 
#7,316
#7,316
LouderVol said:
what that Nuland doesn't like the EU? you know that hurts your theory. if she didn't like the EU why would she remove a guy who was moving away from the EU?
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No, she clearly stated that Yatsenyuk was their guy to be part of the new govt. Are you serious? You all are really that selective of hearing? Or do you just want to be ignorant?
 
#7,317
#7,317
Rasputin_Vol said:
No, she clearly stated that Yatsenyuk was their guy to be part of the new govt. Are you serious? You all are really that selective of hearing? Or do you just want to be ignorant?
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When did the State Department elect him to the position?

I'll wait...
 
#7,318
#7,318
Rasputin_Vol said:
No, she clearly stated that Yatsenyuk was their guy to be part of the new govt. Are you serious? You all are really that selective of hearing? Or do you just want to be ignorant?
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i havent watched/listened to it so i am going off what you have been saying. so i am guessing ignorant here.
 
#7,320
#7,320
LouderVol said:
i might be wrong here but aren't the plane wings supposed to rip off and break up before they do major damage, i swore i read that somewhere. also a missile would not have done that type of damage. it would have made a tiny (comparitevely) hole and kept moving inside until it detonated, at which point you would have a large hole on the interior not exterior. And before you say a plane would have done more damage the pentagon was made to withstand attacks and did its job very well.

and i am not an expert of missiles but wouldn't the missile have had to have hit at a very low (almost straight) trajectory to make it that far through the rings. and again a missile penetrating the rings would not have done that much damage to the exterior.
Click to expand...

By this, the wings should be clearly visible then, are you suggesting everything just disintegrated? Follow the money/paper trail. Look at what was hit in the pentagon, look at what offices were hit in the world trade centers, and building 7 that just for no reason fell down.
 
#7,322
#7,322
LouderVol said:
i havent watched/listened to it so i am going off what you have been saying. so i am guessing ignorant here.
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You have to understand the Ras and Pacer mentality:

A vote in the Crimea that ends in 97% wanting to join Russia - Completely legit

A Ukrainian national election where an immensely popular figure gets elected with more than half the votes in the country - State Department rigged a national election and installed "their" guy
 
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#7,323
#7,323
OrangeWayOfLife said:
By this, the wings should be clearly visible then, are you suggesting everything just disintegrated? Follow the money/paper trail. Look at what was hit in the pentagon, look at what offices were hit in the world trade centers, and building 7 that just for no reason fell down.
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the planes are where they keep the fuel, boom. and the WTC collapsed 'on' their smaller brother resulting in structural compromise, even if it hadn't collapsed they would have had to demo it. I was there a year after and they were still repairing the buildings surrounding ground zero. and really your conspiracy on the WTC attack hinges on there being money involved. in a terrorist attack designed to destabilize the US you are shocked the money got attacked in the World Trade Center (that wasn't an idle name)?
 
#7,325
#7,325
Grand Vol said:
You have to understand the Ras and Pacer mentality:

A vote in the Crimea that ends in 97% wanting to join Russia - Completely legit

A Ukrainian national election where an immensely popular figure gets elected with more than half the votes in the country - State Department rigged a national election and installed "their" guy
Click to expand...

obviously.
 
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