Chris Kyle: American hero or

Which is still disparaging.....

Yet, an accurate depiction as a rule with some exceptions.

Soldiers, by and large, do what they are ordered without reflection. In the face of a glaring illegal order, some soldiers will refuse, and even then I would argue this "some" while significant would not constitute a majority, not even a majority of the officer corps or the NCO corps.

As a defense, I think the percentage of soldiers that would conceive of an illegal order and order it is a tiny percent, but passing on orders is not conceiving of that order.
 
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Yet, an accurate depiction as a rule with some exceptions.

Soldiers, by and large, do what they are ordered without reflection. In the face of a glaring illegal order, some soldiers will refuse, and even then I would argue this "some" while significant would not constitute a majority, not even a majority of the officer corps or the NCO corps.

As a defense, I think the percentage of soldiers that would conceive of an illegal order and order it is a tiny percent, but passing on orders is not conceiving of that order.

This is the level I think most illegal orders would get questioned and stopped.
 
This is the level I think most illegal orders would get questioned and stopped.

Every year that passes in these wars, the NCO corps weakens, as younger and younger soldiers are prematurely promoted to fill spots. It's not the same NCO corps of old.
 
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I can see Trut's POV. Heroic actions do not necessarily make a hero. To put it in simple terms, we all have it in us to do good and/or do bad. Different situations may bring about different results. Given that, how do you define someone as a hero? Maybe straight forward heroes don't exist. Maybe the only heroes that exist in this world are personal heroes. For some, Chris Kyle could easily be seen as a personal hero. Everyone has different criteria as to what makes a hero. I think I'll avoid what makes a hero to me simply because it invites too much arguement. We all have different ways of seeing the world, and the people that live in it.
Good post. It's hard to universally apply a title when we've all got different criteria for said title.
 
Every year that passes in these wars, the NCO corps weakens, as younger and younger soldiers are prematurely promoted to fill spots. It's not the same NCO corps of old.

Maybe so, things must have changed.
 
Seems appropriate

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In what way is it not true? The reason you find it disparaging is because you are thinking of the military in terms of WHO is in it rather than WHAT it is.

Sam, it's not that I don't see your point, but the world isn't as black and white as you paint it to be. The world exists in color. I have not served in the military. I can't speak from the POV of someone who's actually seen combat. What I am, or I guess was considering I'm not a child, was a Navy brat. I grew up on bases surrounded by sailors and marines. I saw people deployed, including my own father, not knowing for certain they would come home. The night before my 13th birthday, the USS Stark was hit by an Iraqi missile in the Persian Gulf. Luckily, that wasn't my father's ship. Unluckily, it was the ship of a classmate, and his father died that night. So yeah, I do have a problem separating the WHO from the WHAT. I realize that politicians misuse our military, and it sickens me, but it's hard to hear people actually disparage our military, whether intentional or not.

But you have the right to believe what you want. I could state that men and women of service have shed their blood and given their lives since the beginning of our nation to ensure you that right, but it most likely would fall on deaf ears. Not every war we have fought has been justified. Not every war has been about ensuring those rights endure. But the men and women of the military are the ones who will fight for you to keep those rights if/when they are threatened.

We've lived different lives. I see the world through one spectrum, and you see it through another. I guess that's just the way of the world. But quite honestly, I don't think your problem is with the military. I think your problem is with politics. I've stated before, I hate politics. They're pervasive and divisive. And they've seeped into the upper commands of the military. The Joint Chiefs, the Pentagon, they've been forced to play the game of politics, and it's ugly. But I don't think that applies to the majority of the rank and file. The men I knew, and at that time it was mostly men, they were just guys doing their duty. They were not perfect men, I won't idealize them as such, but most, not all, we're honorable men.

I look at the situation before us, and I have no real solutions. What I know is as long as we keep electing career politicians, people with clear agendas, people who put more into accomplishing those agendas than they do trying to fix the ills of our country, nothing is going to change. We create these lines between ourselves, and we bicker over silly things. What we have in this country may not be perfect, but it's better than most. And I know to get here, sacrifices were made. Sometimes, I feel like people forget what others sacrificed to get us to where we are.

I'm sure someone will feel the need to tear apart what I've said, but it doesn't really matter. Maybe they'll give me something to think on, but most likely, they'll do it just to be asshats. I can live with that.
 
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I'm sure someone will feel the need to tear apart what I've said, but it doesn't really matter. Maybe they'll give me something to think on, but most likely, they'll do it just to be asshats. I can live with that.

I agree that the world isn't black and white. I've tried to convey my belief in that notion throughout this thread. This is why I think it is possible to criticize the military as a whole and its relationship with the government without condemning the individuals in the military. And any criticism I've levied at the military, I've tried to make sure that it is as an instrument of the government, and not addressed to individuals. This is why I maintain that I have not been disparaging towards the military, because I don't think you can be disparaging to an inanimate entity. As a poor and imperfect comparison: I work for the southern company and everybody I work with is great. If a customer came up to me and said that they hate this company and are tired of being raped on their electric bill every month, I wouldn't dig my heels in and tell them to go to hell with their disparaging remarks towards my wonderful co-workers. The company isn't good or evil. The company isn't any one of my co-workers. It is an inanimate entity. Any criticism against the company does not necessarily reflect on the individuals that work hard every day to provide electricity throughout the southeast.

As for dissecting your post, I think it was respectful and well thought out. You won't get any snarky douchebagery from me.
 
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Sam, it's not that I don't see your point, but the world isn't as black and white as you paint it to be. The world exists in color. I have not served in the military. I can't speak from the POV of someone who's actually seen combat. What I am, or I guess was considering I'm not a child, was a Navy brat. I grew up on bases surrounded by sailors and marines. I saw people deployed, including my own father, not knowing for certain they would come home. The night before my 13th birthday, the USS Stark was hit by an Iraqi missile in the Persian Gulf. Luckily, that wasn't my father's ship. Unluckily, it was the ship of a classmate, and his father died that night. So yeah, I do have a problem separating the WHO from the WHAT. I realize that politicians misuse our military, and it sickens me, but it's hard to hear people actually disparage our military, whether intentional or not.

But you have the right to believe what you want. I could state that men and women of service have shed their blood and given their lives since the beginning of our nation to ensure you that right, but it most likely would fall on deaf ears. Not every war we have fought has been justified. Not every war has been about ensuring those rights endure. But the men and women of the military are the ones who will fight for you to keep those rights if/when they are threatened.

We've lived different lives. I see the world through one spectrum, and you see it through another. I guess that's just the way of the world. But quite honestly, I don't think your problem is with the military. I think your problem is with politics. I've stated before, I hate politics. They're pervasive and divisive. And they've seeped into the upper commands of the military. The Joint Chiefs, the Pentagon, they've been forced to play the game of politics, and it's ugly. But I don't think that applies to the majority of the rank and file. The men I knew, and at that time it was mostly men, they were just guys doing their duty. They were not perfect men, I won't idealize them as such, but most, not all, we're honorable men.

I look at the situation before us, and I have no real solutions. What I know is as long as we keep electing career politicians, people with clear agendas, people who put more into accomplishing those agendas than they do trying to fix the ills of our country, nothing is going to change. We create these lines between ourselves, and we bicker over silly things. What we have in this country may not be perfect, but it's better than most. And I know to get here, sacrifices were made. Sometimes, I feel like people forget what others sacrificed to get us to where we are.

I'm sure someone will feel the need to tear apart what I've said, but it doesn't really matter. Maybe they'll give me something to think on, but most likely, they'll do it just to be asshats. I can live with that.

Wonderful post Weezer. Very well said.
 
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