The Official Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist Thread

#926
#926
n_huffhines said:
Free markets make things cheaper. Food will be cheaper. Government subsidizes certain types of food, but it also makes every kind of food more expensive with regulation, tariffs, etc.

Food will be cheaper if you remove government. Everyone will be fed if you remove government. We don't let people starve because we are good, not because government is the only body that cares. Government is a reflection of us, and it's a lazy answer for helping the poor. There will be societal devices in place for taking care of the poor, with or without government. They exist in the face of government, so why wouldn't you expect more?
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I'll not even respond to the second part other than to say history is replete with instances where government was basically non-existent and people starved.

The larger assumption you are relying on is that free markets naturally remain free. I've yet to see a satisfying response that demonstrates why that assumption would be true but plenty of examples of why it would not remain true.
 
#927
#927
volinbham said:
I'll not even respond to the second part other than to say history is replete with instances where government was basically non-existent and people starved.

The larger assumption you are relying on is that free markets naturally remain free. I've yet to see a satisfying response that demonstrates why that assumption would be true but plenty of examples of why it would not remain true.
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What is the point in saying that?

Yeah, the thing that sucks about this conversation is that neither of us can come close to proving what an alternate universe would look like. It's easy to take the current reality as a given...things are generally good because we have government, but my opinion is that things are generally good because we are generally good. We didn't get rich because we have good government. We got rich because we had great minds and government got out of the way. I can't imagine a world in which government completely gets out of the way. What would the great minds achieve?
 
#928
#928
n_huffhines said:
What is the point in saying that?

Yeah, the thing that sucks about this conversation is that neither of us can come close to proving what an alternate universe would look like. It's easy to take the current reality as a given...things are generally good because we have government, but my opinion is that things are generally good because we are generally good. We didn't get rich because we have good government. We got rich because we had great minds and government got out of the way. I can't imagine a world in which government completely gets out of the way. What would the great minds achieve?
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That's the first sensible thing you've said in 50 pages.
 
#929
#929
n_huffhines said:
What is the point in saying that?

Yeah, the thing that sucks about this conversation is that neither of us can come close to proving what an alternate universe would look like. It's easy to take the current reality as a given...things are generally good because we have government, but my opinion is that things are generally good because we are generally good. We didn't get rich because we have good government. We got rich because we had great minds and government got out of the way. I can't imagine a world in which government completely gets out of the way. What would the great minds achieve?
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We are generally good? Have u ever looked at a sexual predator list? People are not generally good.....We are selfish, greedy beings.
 
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#930
#930
volbeast33 said:
We are generally good? Have u ever looked at a sexual predator list? People are not generally good.....We are selfish, greedy beings.
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Yeah. We are generally good. Do you know how many people in the world don't make that list?
 
#934
#934
hog88 said:
Probably right.

I've always thought as individuals humans can be good and smart. As a group we have the propensity to be evil and dumb.
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We can argue about this one, but it's all subjective. Just depends on how you choose to look at the world. Most people will help you before they'll stab you in the back, IMO. Even the people on VN that don't like me would probably help me before they'd hurt me, if it comes down to it.

19 people crashed planes into towers on 9/11. Thousands of perfect strangers went into the danger zone to help those in the rubble. That's the world we live in. We can focus on the 19 or the thousands. I choose to focus on the thousands. The government isn't what keeps the 19 generally in line. It's the thousands that do.
 
#935
#935
n_huffhines said:
We can argue about this one, but it's all subjective. Just depends on how you choose to look at the world. Most people will help you before they'll stab you in the back, IMO. Even the people on VN that don't like me would probably help me before they'd hurt me, if it comes down to it.

19 people crashed planes into towers on 9/11. Thousands of perfect strangers went into the danger zone to help those in the rubble. That's the world we live in. We can focus on the 19 or the thousands. I choose to focus on the thousands. The government isn't what keeps the 19 generally in line. It's the thousands that do.
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But as those events prove, it doesn't take much more than a handful of the bad ones to ruin everything the good ones work for.
 
#936
#936
Thrasher865 said:
But as those events prove, it doesn't take much more than a handful of the bad ones to ruin everything the good ones work for.
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But what can we conclude from that? Government didn't stop them. In fact, it seems clear our government is the reason they chose to target us.
 
#938
#938
hog88 said:
No. They targeted us because of our belief in freedom.
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Nope. Our government has been meddling in the Middle East for 50-60 years. CIA experts call it "Blowback" but that doesn't fit the Fox News narrative, so they pretend it's about a difference in values. Our differences definitely contribute to the ill-will between us. They tell us why they attack us, and we ignore it.

You can read all about the CIA's theory of blowback, if you are interested.

Blowback (intelligence) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#939
#939
n_huffhines said:
We can argue about this one, but it's all subjective. Just depends on how you choose to look at the world. Most people will help you before they'll stab you in the back, IMO. Even the people on VN that don't like me would probably help me before they'd hurt me, if it comes down to it.

19 people crashed planes into towers on 9/11. Thousands of perfect strangers went into the danger zone to help those in the rubble. That's the world we live in. We can focus on the 19 or the thousands. I choose to focus on the thousands. The government isn't what keeps the 19 generally in line. It's the thousands that do.
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The thousands that day did a good thing......that does not make them generally good people. U don't have near as much confidence in my fellow man as u do.
 
#940
#940
hog88 said:
Probably right.

I've always thought as individuals humans can be good and smart. As a group we have the propensity to be evil and dumb.
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I wish I had the video clip of Tommy Lee Jones explaining to Will Smith in MIB about people... very funny... and very true.

MIB
 
#942
#942
n_huffhines said:
What is the point in saying that?

Yeah, the thing that sucks about this conversation is that neither of us can come close to proving what an alternate universe would look like. It's easy to take the current reality as a given...things are generally good because we have government, but my opinion is that things are generally good because we are generally good. We didn't get rich because we have good government. We got rich because we had great minds and government got out of the way. I can't imagine a world in which government completely gets out of the way. What would the great minds achieve?
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I thought you were arguing that you'd like to see this country evolve into AnCap?

That said

It's a pretty simple question - what preserves a free market? Is it self perpetuating? I would argue no - that very freedom of such as system moves it towards controlled markets.

Capital accumulation (a characteristic of free markets) naturally leads to monopolistic situations which are clearly antithetical to free markets. In the end the paradox is that rule of law (and an enforcement regime) is needed to preserve "free" markets.

The other major assumption that is woven through your arguments is a uniform desire among "citizens" for free market solutions coupled coupled with behavior that reinforces (rather than deters) the free market. Clearly people have quite diverse motives and as has been pointed out there is a tendency for people to form government.

So 2 major flaws I see in an AnCap ideal are:

1) the free market needs some structure and enforcement to remain a free market

2) humans are diverse in their desire for societal control mechanisms.

Both lead to the destruction of the AnCap ideal (absence of government)
 
#943
#943
volinbham said:
I thought you were arguing that you'd like to see this country evolve into AnCap?

That said

It's a pretty simple question - what preserves a free market? Is it self perpetuating? I would argue no - that very freedom of such as system moves it towards controlled markets.

Capital accumulation (a characteristic of free markets) naturally leads to monopolistic situations which are clearly antithetical to free markets. In the end the paradox is that rule of law (and an enforcement regime) is needed to preserve "free" markets.

The other major assumption that is woven through your arguments is a uniform desire among "citizens" for free market solutions coupled coupled with behavior that reinforces (rather than deters) the free market. Clearly people have quite diverse motives and as has been pointed out there is a tendency for people to form government.

So 2 major flaws I see in an AnCap ideal are:

1) the free market needs some structure and enforcement to remain a free market

2) humans are diverse in their desire for societal control mechanisms.

Both lead to the destruction of the AnCap ideal (absence of government)
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I would say that's true because government exists and government moves towards control.

Monopolistic situations arise from government involvement. There are almost no monopolies in the history of the world that weren't accomplished without government. If monopolistic situations are what you fear, then you are championing the wrong system. Show me a monopolist and I'll show you government involvement. ALCOA is the one exception I know of, in all my time studying this question.

I disagree with 1), but I totally agree with 2).
 
#944
#944
n_huffhines said:
I would say that's true because government exists and government moves towards control.

Monopolistic situations arise from government involvement. There are almost no monopolies in the history of the world that weren't accomplished without government. If monopolistic situations are what you fear, then you are championing the wrong system. Show me a monopolist and I'll show you government involvement. ALCOA is the one exception I know of, in all my time studying this question.

I disagree with 1), but I totally agree with 2).
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Government may both encourage (via regulation/licensure) and deter (via anti-trust regulation) the formation of monopolies.

Capitalism certainly encourages it.

Given that AnCap absolutely relies on free markets as the control mechanism it is a critical question to ask whether or not free markets are self perpetuating.

You keep deflecting critiques of AnCap and free markets as the sole societal control mechanism by saying "well, government is bad too".

My criticism of AnCap vs government in some form is not
"which is better"; it is a critique of the underlying assumptions for how AnCap would work. Those assumptions are as unrealistic as those undergirding Communism IMO.
 
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#945
#945
volinbham said:
Government may both encourage (via regulation/licensure) and deter (via anti-trust regulation) the formation of monopolies.

Capitalism certainly encourages it.

Given that AnCap absolutely relies on free markets as the control mechanism it is a critical question to ask whether or not free markets are self perpetuating.

You keep deflecting critiques of AnCap and free markets as the sole societal control mechanism by saying "well, government is bad too".

My criticism of AnCap vs government in some form is not
"which is better"; it is a critique of the underlying assumptions for how AnCap would work. Those assumptions are as unrealistic as those undergirding Communism IMO.
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You can behave like a monopoly, but the only way to achieve sustained monopoly power is through government. The very regulations meant to prevent monopolies are written by lawyers trying to create barriers to entry to protect the profits of the existing companies with market power.

Anti-trust law is a complete farce. They usually go after companies that are making the market better (ie, lowering equilibrium prices).
 
#946
#946
n_huffhines said:
You can behave like a monopoly, but the only way to achieve sustained monopoly power is through government. The very regulations meant to prevent monopolies are written by lawyers trying to create barriers to entry to protect the profits of the existing companies with market power.

Anti-trust law is a complete farce. They usually go after companies that are making the market better (ie, lowering equilibrium prices).
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More critique of government.

You are ignoring how unfettered capitalism will create monopolies that last significantly long to impact the citizenry in the same manner a government encouraged one does.

Why does it matter how the monopoly (or even oligopoly) came to be?
 
#947
#947
volinbham said:
More critique of government.

You are ignoring how unfettered capitalism will create monopolies that last significantly long to impact the citizenry in the same manner a government encouraged one does.

Why does it matter how the monopoly (or even oligopoly) came to be?
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I don't think it will. Will there be exceptions to the rule? Yes. Do the problems created by monopolies in an unfettered market outweigh the problems created by government created monopolies? No. Not even close in my mind.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm rejecting it.
 
#948
#948
n_huffhines said:
I don't think it will. Will there be exceptions to the rule? Yes. Do the problems created by monopolies in an unfettered market outweigh the problems created by government created monopolies? No. Not even close in my mind.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm rejecting it.
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You have nothing to base this rejection on other than faith.

So far it's markets will remain free because that's how free markets work.

Before you can compare systems you need to establish that your assumptions of your favored system are valid.

Throughout history we've seen that regardless of type of/level of government (even in case with almost no government) that capital concentrates and those with these resources exert increasing control. This is a characteristic of capitalism.

Saying you are cool with this happening in AnCap is one thing. Pretending it won't happen is another thing altogether.
 
#949
#949
volinbham said:
You have nothing to base this rejection on other than faith.
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Same as your position. What's the difference? If we don't know how an unfettered market would perform, you don't know that a regulated market outperforms it. Your position is based on faith.
 
#950
#950
n_huffhines said:
Same as your position. What's the difference? If we don't know how an unfettered market would perform, you don't know that a regulated market outperforms it. Your position is based on faith.
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We do know or at least have a dang good idea of how an unfettered market would preform. That's what you continue to ignore.
 
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