'15 MD OT Pat Allen

#1,776
#1,776
sjt18 said:
He had "laughable talent" in '13? And in context, he had as much to work with in '14 as Dooley did in his first year or Kiffin did in his. Kiffin started two way undersized walk ons and an undersized RS Fr with no experience. Dooley's first OL finished the season with 3 Fr starters on the OL.

It may "kick in" next fall but OL performance so far has been lacking and rate of improvement has been behind pretty much every other position group.

He isn't "accountable" for taking what he had and getting performance on par with Bama. But he didn't have the worst talent in the SEC. Having the worst OL in the SEC is a subpar performance. That doesn't mean he should be fired or he's doomed to fail... just that he hasn't proven himself yet.

Drastic? Good. Not drastic. Total D vs the SEC went from 9th to 8th. Scoring D vs the SEC went from 10th to 9th.

The results were better. From an "eyeball" and confidence POV were better. But Jancek still hasn't "proven" that he's a championship level coach in the SEC. We all hope he is... but he hasn't proven that yet.



I wouldn't label him a "bad coach" yet either. But the results so far haven't been "good". There is some judgment on each person's part that determines when they've seen enough. For me, he doesn't have to produce the best OL in the SEC in '15... but considering the drop in '13 and the terrible product in '14... it needs to improve significantly.


If someone has labeled him a "bad coach" or a failure then I'd join you in begging one more year of patience to see if he can turn it all around.
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All good points. Especially "he didn't have the worst talent in the SEC but we performed the worst in the SEC."

Hopefully the sandbagging Blair conspiracy theory is true.
 
#1,777
#1,777
Mahoney is definitely still a question mark, IMO. But, did anyone honestly not expect our OL play to significantly struggle this year? UT replaced the entire OL from the previous season in addition to playing freshman, guys out of position, and through injuries. It's much easier to judge a coach, from the general public's perspective, when you expect the position group to be good. If one already expects the position group to struggle, a reasonable person would simply hope you get a reasonable product.
 
#1,779
#1,779
LynxVol said:
Mahoney is definitely still a question mark, IMO. But, did anyone honestly not expect our OL play to significantly struggle this year? UT replaced the entire OL from the previous season in addition to playing freshman, guys out of position, and through injuries. It's much easier to judge a coach, from the general public's perspective, when you expect the position group to be good. If one already expects the position group to struggle, a reasonable person would simply hope you get a reasonable product.
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What was most disappointing about this season was that Crowder, Kyberson and Jackson looked at times awful and not very strong.. after being in the program for 4 years
 
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#1,780
#1,780
LynxVol said:
Mahoney is definitely still a question mark, IMO. But, did anyone honestly not expect our OL play to significantly struggle this year? UT replaced the entire OL from the previous season in addition to playing freshman, guys out of position, and through injuries. It's much easier to judge a coach, from the general public's perspective, when you expect the position group to be good. If one already expects the position group to struggle, a reasonable person would simply hope you get a reasonable product.
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One could argue we replaced our whole DL too.

Stj said it best. We didn't have the worst talent in the SEC, but we performed the worst in the SEC. That's cause for concern at the very least.

I still can't get over the fact that we gave up more sacks to UTC than any of their FCS opponents.
 
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#1,781
#1,781
sjt18 said:
He had "laughable talent" in '13? And in context, he had as much to work with in '14 as Dooley did in his first year or Kiffin did in his. Kiffin started two way undersized walk ons and an undersized RS Fr with no experience. Dooley's first OL finished the season with 3 Fr starters on the OL.

It may "kick in" next fall but OL performance so far has been lacking and rate of improvement has been behind pretty much every other position group.

He isn't "accountable" for taking what he had and getting performance on par with Bama. But he didn't have the worst talent in the SEC. Having the worst OL in the SEC is a subpar performance. That doesn't mean he should be fired or he's doomed to fail... just that he hasn't proven himself yet.

Drastic? Good. Not drastic. Total D vs the SEC went from 9th to 8th. Scoring D vs the SEC went from 10th to 9th.

The results were better. From an "eyeball" and confidence POV were better. But Jancek still hasn't "proven" that he's a championship level coach in the SEC. We all hope he is... but he hasn't proven that yet.



I wouldn't label him a "bad coach" yet either. But the results so far haven't been "good". There is some judgment on each person's part that determines when they've seen enough. For me, he doesn't have to produce the best OL in the SEC in '15... but considering the drop in '13 and the terrible product in '14... it needs to improve significantly.


If someone has labeled him a "bad coach" or a failure then I'd join you in begging one more year of patience to see if he can turn it all around.
Click to expand...

Your comparison of Kiffin's OL to this year's is totally flawed. Kiffin had the Sullins twins who had already been in the program for 2 to 3 years, plus some other decent linemen. This year we had 2 raw freshmen starting on the right side of the line, one played center in HS at RT and the other a converted DT. We had a one legged RT after Thomas was lit up. Kerbyson is not a LT by any stretch. Maybe Kendrick should have played more, but I don't know that for sure. But, Mahoney probably should get a medal for trying to play these guys against the teams we played this year. Butch is hanging with him for some reason and we know Butch knows us Vol fans won't stand for mediocrity. We'll see.
 
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#1,783
#1,783
My question is if he wasn't sure, why did he decommit from GA in the first place- is it common for a player to decommit, look at committing to another school the next day, then change his mind and then say he's waiting until NSD...he could have waited to see who Georgia hired all along and then make a decision and not be about to commit to us- it's like runaway bride and he's running back to those old dawgs.. Ugh! Hoping we can get him in the end. GBO!!
 
#1,785
#1,785
So I guess our chances with Pat Allen depend on whether or not he thinks Bloomgren is a great hire. I can see how UGA could talk the guy up, even though he isn't a splash hire.
 
#1,787
#1,787
vol lady said:
My question is if he wasn't sure, why did he decommit from GA in the first place- is it common for a player to decommit, look at committing to another school the next day, then change his mind and then say he's waiting until NSD...he could have waited to see who Georgia hired all along and then make a decision and not be about to commit to us- it's like runaway bride and he's running back to those old dawgs.. Ugh! Hoping we can get him in the end. GBO!!
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These kids get so much different info thrown at them from different coaches. I'm sure it is extremely confusing to them. I am guessing that our coaches had him fully convinced to flip on Sunday night, then Georgia called him and convinced him that they were making a big hire that he would like, so he decided to delay his announcement to see who they hire. For many kids, the recruiting process is a very confusing time.
 
#1,789
#1,789
LA Vol said:
So I guess our chances with Pat Allen depend on whether or not he thinks Bloomgren is a great hire. I can see how UGA could talk the guy up, even though he isn't a splash hire.
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Did they officially hire him? If so, that is a pretty average hire IMO.
 
#1,791
#1,791
Biopsyman said:
What was most disappointing about this season was that Crowder, Kyberson and Jackson looked at times awful and not very strong.. after being in the program for 4 years
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Kerbyson was out of position- I am not sure you can really count him. You can get better within your talent, but you can't expect someone to improve their talent.

I see the ones who want to continue their schtick. The 2013 OL under Mahoney was actually an improvement than the previous years. Even though the sacks were up a bit, we were still 12th in the nation with 15 sacks allowed, and that was with an inferior QB and true freshman QB the last 4 games. On top of that, we had over 300 more total rushing yards in 2013 than 2012, and Patterson accounted for 300 yards in 2012 (so you can argue more like 600 more).

Sure, the OL was poor this past year, but it was also very green with new players and freshmen. Sure, it needs to get better, but I expect it to get better. If improvement isn't shown going forward, then things need to change. But, the 2013 season was in no way a negative toward the OL coach.
 
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#1,792
#1,792
volroadwarrior said:
Your comparison of Kiffin's OL to this year's is totally flawed. Kiffin had the Sullins twins who had already been in the program for 2 to 3 years, plus some other decent linemen. This year we had 2 raw freshmen starting on the right side of the line, one played center in HS at RT and the other a converted DT. We had a one legged RT after Thomas was lit up. Kerbyson is not a LT by any stretch. Maybe Kendrick should have played more, but I don't know that for sure. But, Mahoney probably should get a medal for trying to play these guys against the teams we played this year. Butch is hanging with him for some reason and we know Butch knows us Vol fans won't stand for mediocrity. We'll see.
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We also had Chris Scott at LT, who played in the NFL and Jacques McClendon at RG, who played in the NFL. They played all 13 games. Vladimir Richard was hurt throughout the year but started the first 3 games. Jerrod Shaw also played some. I agree that it is not the same.
 
#1,793
#1,793
Biopsyman said:
We appartently had 6 guys squatting 600 before fall camp and maybe a few were Crowder and Jackson
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I get what you are saying but they hadn't been doing S&C like they were supposed to for 4 years. I heard on one of the College game day shows last year that AJ McCarron could squat 600 lbs. Don't think he would have been a very good lineman.
 
#1,794
#1,794
jave36 said:
All good points. Especially "he didn't have the worst talent in the SEC but we performed the worst in the SEC."

Hopefully the sandbagging Blair conspiracy theory is true.
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I hang my hopes on one of Jones' "mantras". "We're gonna build it the right way".

There is a possibility that what we are seeing is a refusal to "skip steps" in order to get a more immediate result. It is pretty much the opposite of what Fulmer did most of his time. He would bring great players in, "throw it all at them to see what sticks", then game plan as best he could around strengths and weaknesses. Not saying that was wrong... many people do it and are successful. The limit of course becomes the quality of your talent in the absolute sense. He could beat the middling and lower teams but struggled badly against UF and others with equal or greater talent. The benefit of "building it the right way" and coaching execution before scheme is that you should eventually see your players perform higher than the sum of their talent.

IF this idea holds water then taking a guy like Blair and spending a year working on conditioning and skills is "doing it the right way".

This is why I haven't given up on the OL being good or even better than good... but refuse to call what we've seen so far "good". The results so far have been sub-par.

PS- I think Jones wanted to keep Dobbs hidden while developing him and preserving a year of eligibility... then you see the year off for Maggitt when he definitely could have helped the '13 D.... M Jackson similar. There is a pattern of behavior there.
 
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#1,795
#1,795
LynxVol said:
Mahoney is definitely still a question mark, IMO. But, did anyone honestly not expect our OL play to significantly struggle this year?
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Of course... just not for them to be the worst OL in the SEC and one of the worst in the country.
UT replaced the entire OL from the previous season in addition to playing freshman, guys out of position, and through injuries.
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Coaches make choices. Fulmer would not have coached the OL the same way... nor would Kiffin/Chaney. Hopefully it was an investment by Jones that will pay off going forward.

If one already expects the position group to struggle, a reasonable person would simply hope you get a reasonable product.
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Agree... They were worse than what is absolutely "reasonable".
 
#1,796
#1,796
Hypothetically what would happen if we can't land Allen or St. Louis? Anyone else we could get for an OT?
 
#1,797
#1,797
volroadwarrior said:
Your comparison of Kiffin's OL to this year's is totally flawed. Kiffin had the Sullins twins who had already been in the program for 2 to 3 years, plus some other decent linemen.
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Kerbyson, Crowder, and Jackson were all talented 4th year players. They had the guys who they recruited in '13 with a year of development. The only other player with serious potential to contribute outside of Kiffin's starters was Vlad Richard. If the comparison has a flaw... it is that Kiffin inherited less.

Again, there are/were philosophical differences. Jones is trying to "build it the right way"... Kiffin was trying to build a resume to get his "dream job"... and I never believed that USC was the only "dream job" he'd consider.

But just comparing on the field results... Kiffin's product with perhaps less to work with... were better.

This year we had 2 raw freshmen starting on the right side of the line, one played center in HS at RT and the other a converted DT.
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And on the bench they had Kendrick, Wiesman, and Sanders... players the staff had recruited and developed for a year. Then they had Pair who enjoyed the training table for 5 years without anyone ever figuring out how to use productively.

My point is simply that they had and made choices. Jones is fond of saying that they do "everything for a reason". No doubt that is true but after other guys had the opportunity to play... Thomas sure didn't look like the best RT option they had.

Kerbyson is not a LT by any stretch. Maybe Kendrick should have played more, but I don't know that for sure.
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That's one of the few things I've concretely questioned but someone said that Kendrick had some sort of discipline issue that kept him off the field. Kerbyson deserves a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star... but he just isn't cut to be a LT.

But, Mahoney probably should get a medal for trying to play these guys against the teams we played this year. Butch is hanging with him for some reason and we know Butch knows us Vol fans won't stand for mediocrity. We'll see.
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He trusts him. That's important even if someone else is actually a better coach. But like you say, results have to improve. Hopefully all we've seen so far is the ugliness of foundation laying.
 
#1,798
#1,798
Catbone said:
Hypothetically what would happen if we can't land Allen or St. Louis? Anyone else we could get for an OT?
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Just in the limited opportunities to see them play... and recruiting videos... Jack Jones looks like a better LT prospect to me than Allen.
 
#1,799
#1,799
sjt18 said:
Just in the limited opportunities to see them play... and recruiting videos... Jack Jones looks like a better LT prospect to me than Allen.
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I have the feeling we can trust Jack Jones to play any position along the offensive line.
 
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