The Official Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist Thread

#276
#276
LouderVol said:
the Kennedys, Vanderbilts and Rockefellers of the world will thank you for your beliefs that monopolies are rare and only because they provide the best service.
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Vanderbilt created a monopoly by lowering fares for steam travel by like 99.9%. He even gave away fares for free at one point, and made profit off concessions.

Kennedy's got rich off prohibition. We can thank the government for that.

Rockefeller had the government's help as well.

There is a lot that is misunderstood about the robber barons. Rockefeller charitably gave away more money than anybody in history had ever earned. Hardly paints the picture of an evil businessman.
 
#279
#279
n_huffhines said:
Vanderbilt created a monopoly by lowering fares for steam travel by like 99.9%. He even gave away fares for free at one point, and made profit off concessions.

Kennedy's got rich off prohibition. We can thank the government for that.

Rockefeller had the government's help as well.

There is a lot that is misunderstood about the robber barons. Rockefeller charitably gave away more money than anybody in history had ever earned. Hardly paints the picture of an evil businessman.
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I am not commenting on how they made it to the top, but what they did once they got there. Started buying out the competition and ensuring they had their own way. Standard Oil is the best evidence of this that i can remember off the top of my head, I may have to dig back in and relearn somethings.
 
#280
#280
hog88 said:
No government ever came about, spread it's influence or expanded through force?
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Sure, but that's not the same thing as what I'm talking about.

Government is adopted by a geographic region, is given the authority to use force at its inception, and then maybe expands.

We are talking about a business growing to a point so big that without any geographic control, it can suddenly decide that it wants to conquer geographic regions, and expand until all 350 million are subjugated. It's impossible. It's not happening.

Say Firm A tries to wrest control over what we know to be the state of Tennessee...well there are people in Tennessee who are patriots who will fight them, not to mention they've hired firms B-Z to help. Oh yeah, everyone in the other 49 states who was part of firm A has now switched protection companies, and their revenue has dried up.

By the time the battle for Tennessee is over, firm A has either lost, or has no money to go after the rest of the 49 states and has to do all it can to keep the geographic region it's holding. It's impossible. War is a zero sum game.
 
#281
#281
LouderVol said:
I am not commenting on how they made it to the top, but what they did once they got there. Started buying out the competition and ensuring they had their own way. Standard Oil is the best evidence of this that i can remember off the top of my head, I may have to dig back in and relearn somethings.
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Right, and you know how they were able to do that? By providing the best goods and services. Rockefeller made oil mainstream, because he made it affordable to all.

We always hear about how we need to fear the robber barons. Rockefeller bought out the competition? And then what? The prices were still much lower than before Rockefeller came into the picture. OMG, please government. Save us from these evil robber barons with market power!
 
#282
#282
n_huffhines said:
Sure, but that's not the same thing as what I'm talking about.

Government is adopted by a geographic region, is given the authority to use force at its inception, and then maybe expands.

We are talking about a business growing to a point so big that without any geographic control, it can suddenly decide that it wants to conquer geographic regions, and expand until all 350 million are subjugated. It's impossible. It's not happening.

Say Firm A tries to wrest control over what we know to be the state of Tennessee...well there are people in Tennessee who are patriots who will fight them, not to mention they've hired firms B-Z to help. Oh yeah, everyone in the other 49 states who was part of firm A has now switched protection companies, and their revenue has dried up.

By the time the battle for Tennessee is over, firm A has either lost, or has no money to go after the rest of the 49 states and has to do all it can to keep the geographic region it's holding. It's impossible. War is a zero sum game.
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Baby steps my boy.

Firm A drives out firm B buys out firm C prices firm D out of business. Then a much stronger firm A goes to the next area and so on and so on. Until they cannot be opposed.
 
#283
#283
You guys remember when Cohaagen had a monopoly on all the air? That sucked! If it hadn't been for Kuato helping Quaid find the alien...wait, sorry, nevermind.
 
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#284
#284
n_huffhines said:
Right, and you know how they were able to do that? By providing the best goods and services. Rockefeller made oil mainstream, because he made it affordable to all.

We always hear about how we need to fear the robber barons. Rockefeller bought out the competition? And then what? The prices were still much lower than before Rockefeller came into the picture. OMG, please government. Save us from these evil robber barons with market power!
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exactly, doesn't exactly fit into your free market idea when there is only one guy. And in this case going from un-attainable to the masses to anything less is ok? Rockefeller also helped drive up the demand for it as well. most of the first successful car brands were electric until big money influenced it to gas cars. A lot of these big guys also bought out light commuter rail and then shut it down inside cities to force the adoption of car by the American population. Not a good move for the interests of the American people.
 
#285
#285
hog88 said:
Baby steps my boy.

Firm A drives out firm B buys out firm C prices firm D out of business. Then a much stronger firm A goes to the next area and so on and so on. Until they cannot be opposed.
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This only makes sense in an oversimplified view of how markets work, IMO. What you are talking about is an impossibility, in my mind. There could literally be thousands of protection companies protecting people/families in any one city. Nobody is cornering the market.

Your argument also makes terrible sense from a cost benefit analysis and risk/reward standpoint. If a company is so big, successful, and fabulously wealthy why would it risk everything? To price people out of the market place, you have to cut off your own nose. You are not likely to be successful starting a war to conquer the US. It's absurd to think about. It's a horrible risk for someone who has everything to lose.
 
#287
#287
n_huffhines said:
This only makes sense in an oversimplified view of how markets work, IMO. What you are talking about is an impossibility, in my mind. There could literally be thousands of protection companies protecting people/families in any one city. Nobody is cornering the market.

Your argument also makes terrible sense from a cost benefit analysis and risk/reward standpoint. If a company is so big, successful, and fabulously wealthy why would it risk everything? To price people out of the market place, you have to cut off your own nose. You are not likely to be successful starting a war to conquer the US. It's absurd to think about. It's a horrible risk for someone who has everything to lose.
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Happens all the time. Called buying business.
 
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#288
#288
hog88 said:
Happens all the time. Called buying business.
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You have to know that's not a valid response to my point, right? I realize that there is such a thing as a buyout. That's not what I'm disputing.
 
#289
#289
n_huffhines said:
this only makes sense in an oversimplified view of how markets work, imo. What you are talking about is an impossibility, in my mind. There could literally be thousands of protection companies protecting people/families in any one city. Nobody is cornering the market.

Your argument also makes terrible sense from a cost benefit analysis and risk/reward standpoint. if a company is so big, successful, and fabulously wealthy why would it risk everything? To price people out of the market place, you have to cut off your own nose. you are not likely to be successful starting a war to conquer the us. It's absurd to think about. It's a horrible risk for someone who has everything to lose.
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walmart.
 
#290
#290
n_huffhines said:
You have to know that's not a valid response to my point, right? I realize that there is such a thing as a buyout. That's not what I'm disputing.
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Buying a business is not the same as buying business.

Firm A, strong and wealthy comes into a market and establishes a low price point. One that Firm B cannot maintain. That is buying business.
 
#291
#291
LouderVol said:
walmart.
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I must've been unclear, because both you and Hog don't understand my point. Some companies try to carve out their market power by pricing out the competition. The second they start doing that, they lose profitability. Then they are going to continue that long enough to put everyone out of business?

Wal-Mart is nowhere near cornering the market, and they are a company that is heavily subsidized by government. It's not a sustainable business plan, even with the help of government. They wouldn't be able to underprice everyone like they do without the subsidies and tax exemptions no one else has access to.

BTW, I believe Wal-Mart's financial stability is in question, is it not? I know revenue is always high, but I thought they've been posting losses for a while?
 
#292
#292
n_huffhines said:
I must've been unclear, because both you and Hog don't understand my point. Some companies try to carve out their market power by pricing out the competition. The second they start doing that, they lose profitability. Then they are going to continue that long enough to put everyone out of business?

Wal-Mart is nowhere near cornering the market, and they are a company that is heavily subsidized by government. It's not a sustainable business plan, even with the help of government. They wouldn't be able to underprice everyone like they do without the subsidies and tax exemptions no one else has access to.

BTW, I believe Wal-Mart's financial stability is in question, is it not? I know revenue is always high, but I thought they've been posting losses for a while?
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i have no idea on how Walmart is doing. and the reason they are going down is because other big retailers are starting to follow them around. but in small town armerica look what a walmart does for the local economy. kills it. all that money that was staying in town now leaves. same with any large retailer.

and on the walmart front they not only get to low bid the competition but are now at the point where they are telling their suppliers what they are going to pay for the items, and they get away with it because they are the largest retailer.
 
#293
#293
LouderVol said:
i have no idea on how Walmart is doing. and the reason they are going down is because other big retailers are starting to follow them around. but in small town armerica look what a walmart does for the local economy. kills it. all that money that was staying in town now leaves. same with any large retailer.

and on the walmart front they not only get to low bid the competition but are now at the point where they are telling their suppliers what they are going to pay for the items, and they get away with it because they are the largest retailer.
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Almost fell into that trap.
 
#294
#294
LouderVol said:
i have no idea on how Walmart is doing. and the reason they are going down is because other big retailers are starting to follow them around. but in small town armerica look what a walmart does for the local economy. kills it. all that money that was staying in town now leaves. same with any large retailer.

and on the walmart front they not only get to low bid the competition but are now at the point where they are telling their suppliers what they are going to pay for the items, and they get away with it because they are the largest retailer.
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You know of towns whose economies have tanked because of Wal-Mart? I hear people say this, but I've never actually seen an example. I lived in 2 small towns growing up. Both added Wal-Marts. Both saw growth after, but one of them went stagnant later because the economy was highly dependent on government research grant money, and that money dried up (Oak Ridge, TN).
 
#295
#295
n_huffhines said:
You know of towns whose economies have tanked because of Wal-Mart? I hear people say this, but I've never actually seen an example. I lived in 2 small towns growing up. Both added Wal-Marts. Both saw growth after, but one of them went stagnant later because the economy was highly dependent on government research grant money, and that money dried up (Oak Ridge, TN).
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a couple in northwestern AL, where my parents family is. When I say kills the economy I more mean the town center, Main Street culture. Which is sadly dying anyway
 
#297
#297
LouderVol said:
a couple in northwestern AL, where my parents family is. When I say kills the economy I more mean the town center, Main Street culture. Which is sadly dying anyway
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Gotcha...yeah, definitely main street shops go by the wayside, but the community benefits in general because their standard of living goes up as they can afford more goods at Wal Mart.
 
#298
#298
So yeah, Wal-Mart is the greatest company in the world at under-pricing the competition, they are nowhere near pricing out the competition, and they are reliant on government for the ability to underprice competition.

I just don't see any way that a company can achieve what you guys are afraid of.
 
#299
#299
n_huffhines said:
Gotcha...yeah, definitely main street shops go by the wayside, but the community benefits in general because their standard of living goes up as they can afford more goods at Wal Mart.
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In you anarcho-captilist society how long do the suburbs last you think? not very long. taxes drove people out there as soon as that disappears people move back to the city where the jobs are and Wal-mart and most big boxes fall under. As a designer I would argue vehemently that having a Wal-mart and promoting the suburban life is not good for the community in the long run.
 
#300
#300
n_huffhines said:
Islamic terrorist attacks weren't a thing until very recent history....after intervention in the Middle East. Am I really to believe it's about cultural and religious differences when we've been different forever and the attacks have only been going on a few decades?
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Did your research turn up anything about the Barbary Pirates? Or the Moro Rebels in the Philippines?

Don't turn a blind eye to history when it doesn't fit your agenda. The Barbary Pirates were doing things hundreds of years ago that would be construed as terrorism today.
 
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