The Official Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist Thread

#252
#252
PKT_VOL said:
Again, I think you have flawed understanding of humans with respect to how they act in large numbers under varying conditions. Your argument, much like Communism, works great if we are talking about Utopian people and conditions.

As long as humans interact on a large scale, there will be some kind of structure there. Whether you want to recognize that structure as "government" or a "state" is totally on you.

About the best you can argue for is an extremely decentralized government/power structure. However, those that have such a structure will be at a great disadvantage if an adversarial rival decides to pool their resources.
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Thanks for your opinions. Democracy would have been total chaos 1,000 years ago. We weren't ready for it. We aren't ready for anarcho-capitalism at this moment, and we were even less ready 50 years ago, but improvements in technology are making it more and more viable.

You say it can't/won't happen, because you are stuck in your current framework.
 
#253
#253
n_huffhines said:
Thanks for your opinions. Democracy would have been total chaos 1,000 years ago. We weren't ready for it. We aren't ready for anarcho-capitalism at this moment, and we were even less ready 50 years ago, but improvements in technology are making it more and more viable.

You say it can't/won't happen, because you are stuck in your current framework.
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just like you can't say it can/will work.

and pretty sure Athens, a super power of its time had democracy more than 1000 years ago.....
 
#254
#254
LouderVol said:
just like you can't say it can/will work.
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I never said it will work, and when I talk about it, I never pretend that it's a certainty it will work.

What we do know pretty much as a certainty is that government fails. We have the greatest government of all time and it's $18T in debt. Its days are numbered.

That's the best government of all time, guys. We've been trying for all of recorded history everywhere in the world, and the best government invented is failing in spectacular fashion right before our eyes.

Call me crazy for wanting to try something else.
 
#258
#258
hog88 said:
It's been over 100 years since the states fought.

If you think about it, you're idea has been tried in Europe and was a miserable failure.
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So war isn't the problem, it's the type of war that you are concerned about?

My idea has not been tried.
 
#259
#259
n_huffhines said:
So war isn't the problem, it's the type of war that you are concerned about?

My idea has not been tried.
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How has it not? The feudal system with city states is pretty close to what you are proposing.

Substitute city states for companies and the Pope for Arbitrator.
 
#260
#260
hog88 said:
How has it not? The feudal system with city states is pretty close to what you are proposing.

Substitute city states for companies and the Pope for Arbitrator.
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If you think it's similar, then you have no idea what anarcho-capitalism is about.
 
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#262
#262
n_huffhines said:
So war isn't the problem, it's the type of war that you are concerned about?

My idea has not been tried.
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as I have pointed out, it has been tried in several cities and cultures throughout the world. Philadelphia had an anarchist commune burn down killing dozens. and then there is the almost continual experiment of Christiana Freetown. which fails, fails and fails again. even while they are going they don't work like you proposed because someone comes in from the outside world and proves that utopia can't exist.
 
#263
#263
LouderVol said:
as I have pointed out, it has been tried in several cities and cultures throughout the world. Philadelphia had an anarchist commune burn down killing dozens. and then there is the almost continual experiment of Christiana Freetown. which fails, fails and fails again. even while they are going they don't work like you proposed because someone comes in from the outside world and proves that utopia can't exist.
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It's not supposed to be Utopia, and if you hold it to that impossible standard, of course it will be a failure.

I readily admitted that today we may not be ready to practice the prescribed form or anarcho-capitalism. A form of an anarchist commune that was tried in the past is not really a 1:1 comparison. It's like pointing to soviet Russia and saying, "see, government doesn't work." Just like there are different types of government, there are different forms of anarchy.
 
#264
#264
n_huffhines said:
It's not supposed to be Utopia, and if you hold it to that impossible standard, of course it will be a failure.

I readily admitted that today we may not be ready to practice the prescribed form or anarcho-capitalism. A form of an anarchist commune that was tried in the past is not really a 1:1 comparison. It's like pointing to soviet Russia and saying, "see, government doesn't work." Just like there are different types of government, there are different forms of anarchy.
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i should have said 'your utopia' :hi: not utopia in a general sense, but the utopia you propose where mankind's major issues go away with government.

if you are wanting to be specific on some of the government issues we aren't a true democracy, and we are steadily getting away from the republic idea this country was founded on. so I would argue that we haven't seen 'our' ideal situation either. there will always be something to argue, something to fix and something to throw out. doesn't mean it can't work.

i would argue that the fact that centralized governments exist proves that your anarchist-lite idea doesn't work, said another way I don't know how technology would allow it to happen when it hasn't worked before. back before people settled down and there were just tribes there were cultures that had similar philosophy to your anarcho-capitalism. they don't survive hostile contact with other cultures and I don't see how this changes.
 
#265
#265
LouderVol said:
i should have said 'your utopia' :hi: not utopia in a general sense, but the utopia you propose where mankind's major issues go away with government.

if you are wanting to be specific on some of the government issues we aren't a true democracy, and we are steadily getting away from the republic idea this country was founded on. so I would argue that we haven't seen 'our' ideal situation either. there will always be something to argue, something to fix and something to throw out. doesn't mean it can't work.

i would argue that the fact that centralized governments exist proves that your anarchist-lite idea doesn't work, said another way I don't know how technology would allow it to happen when it hasn't worked before. back before people settled down and there were just tribes there were cultures that had similar philosophy to your anarcho-capitalism. they don't survive hostile contact with other cultures and I don't see how this changes.
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Again, nobody is claiming major issues go away. Impossible standard, once again. I do claim that a lot of the major issues brought about by government go away.

I would say that's because inherently government won't allow for it. In thousands of experiments, in every case, government has proven to be inept, too authoritative, or gown beyond a manageable level. Every case. Thousands of iterations.

Well, a silly example that will sound extreme, but illustrates the point well....if we all have invincible force fields, what is the point of a government that protects life? I know that sounds silly, but a less extreme example based in current reality is why do we need an NPR when there are literally thousands of ways to get informed? Or why do we need a government that settles civil disputes when private companies can do that? More and more people are choosing private arbitrage because it's superior. Technology and innovation makes a lot of government's functions obsolete. Just accept that it's possible technology and innovation can make government completely obsolete.
 
#266
#266
n_huffhines said:
Again, nobody is claiming major issues go away. Impossible standard, once again. I do claim that a lot of the major issues brought about by government go away.

I would say that's because inherently government won't allow for it. In thousands of experiments, in every case, government has proven to be inept, too authoritative, or gown beyond a manageable level. Every case. Thousands of iterations.

Well, a silly example that will sound extreme, but illustrates the point well....if we all have invincible force fields, what is the point of a government that protects life? I know that sounds silly, but a less extreme example based in current reality is why do we need an NPR when there are literally thousands of ways to get informed? Or why do we need a government that settles civil disputes when private companies can do that? More and more people are choosing private arbitrage because it's superior. Technology and innovation makes a lot of government's functions obsolete. Just accept that it's possible technology and innovation can make government completely obsolete.
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how would your system be any different than the start of a lot of governments? starts small but as it deals with more and more issues it has to grow/expand. there is no way to maintain it. and you still somehow buy into the idea that Corporations are more trustworthy than the Government. I don't trust either as far as I can throw them.

either one is going to expand and destroy competition. in your plan there is nothing to stop the Walmart way of operating. ultimately people (most) are going to shop at the cheapest option and aren't going to care that the 'walmart' pays their employees $7 an hour or that the crap they are buying was made by people who make $7 a month.
 
#267
#267
LouderVol said:
how would your system be any different than the start of a lot of governments? starts small but as it deals with more and more issues it has to grow/expand. there is no way to maintain it. and you still somehow buy into the idea that Corporations are more trustworthy than the Government. I don't trust either as far as I can throw them.
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I don't trust corporations, I trust choice. With government you don't get a choice. You hand over power to one untrusted entity.

Corporations have 2 kinds of power...market power and political power. If you get rid of government, that takes care of their political power. All your left with is market power. Companies maintain market power by providing goods and services to people that voluntarily interact with them. I trust that market device to keep the corporations in line much more than I trust government to stay in line. Government will not ever stay in line. Corporations that don't stay in line lose market power.
 
#268
#268
LouderVol said:
either one is going to expand and destroy competition. in your plan there is nothing to stop the Walmart way of operating. ultimately people (most) are going to shop at the cheapest option and aren't going to care that the 'walmart' pays their employees $7 an hour or that the crap they are buying was made by people who make $7 a month.
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This is a completely false assumption. Natural monopolies are extremely rare and all other monopolies are accomplished through government favoritism.

In a free market, the only way to destroy the competition is by offering goods and services that are much better than the competition. If a company does that impossible feat, and all competitors go out of business, it will only be because the firm was that amazing. That's a win, IMO. Isn't that the government you want. The one that is so much better than the rest that people freely choose it?

It's not happening anyway, cause it's impossible to corner the market like that.
 
#269
#269
n_huffhines said:
I don't trust corporations, I trust choice. With government you don't get a choice. You hand over power to one untrusted entity.

Corporations have 2 kinds of power...market power and political power. If you get rid of government, that takes care of their political power. All your left with is market power. Companies maintain market power by providing goods and services to people that voluntarily interact with them. I trust that market device to keep the corporations in line much more than I trust government to stay in line. Government will not ever stay in line. Corporations that don't stay in line lose market power.
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Cosa Nostra operates in the same way.
 
#270
#270
hog88 said:
Cosa Nostra operates in the same way.
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You mean like the government? See Eric Garner. Don't pay taxes (AKA protection money)? We'll rough you up. We might even kill you.

If a company behaves that way, they'll get a reputation for it, and the market will turn on them.
 
#271
#271
n_huffhines said:
You mean like the government? See Eric Garner. Don't pay taxes (AKA protection money)? We'll rough you up. We might even kill you.

If a company behaves that way, they'll get a reputation for it, and the market will turn on them.
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No, the stronger more vicious ones will devour the lesser ones and boom, a monopoly is born. A monopoly who will hold those within it's reach as subjects, not citizens.
 
#272
#272
hog88 said:
No, the stronger more vicious ones will devour the lesser ones and boom, a monopoly is born. A monopoly who will hold those within it's reach as subjects, not citizens.
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So just to be clear, you think a business can potentially create a monopoly so successful they could enslave 350 million Americans? Is that what you're saying?
 
#273
#273
the Kennedys, Vanderbilts and Rockefellers of the world will thank you for your beliefs that monopolies are rare and only because they provide the best service.
 
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