Why do people think firing coaches is the answer?

[UTFootballFan]

Here's another question. If you were a four or five star prospect, would you sign with a team that you thought would be firing or changing coaches in a couple years?

 

[sjt18]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on next season but a lot of variables will come into play such as injuries as a prime example. Can't say how next season plays out until next season though.

Not you really but there are those who lean on the injury excuse very heavily... but EVERYONE has injuries and most of them hurt team effectiveness unless you are Bama. They may be the only team that can go two deep everywhere and sometimes 3 without a drop off.

However, the key point of the your response is the UT AD.

If Hart can point to six wins, the threshold needed for a bowl game next season along with continued strong recruiting and minimal off field issues, I see no way Jones doesn't get to year 4.

You are probably right... which leaves me wondering about the commitment to winning championships.

Jones really hits pretty hard on the difference between hoping to win and expecting to win... you have to have that with the people who make decisions about coaching staffs too.

 

[darn2ten]

Coach's are only as good as the guys they surround themselves with. Butch is a very good Coach, he has the right Coach's on the defensive side of the ball but needs a major upgrade at OC, QB Coach and Oline Coach. We are very good at WR and RB Coach as well. But Bajakian is out of his league as OC, QB Coach at UT. He is a midmajor type OC, not the best conference in college football OC. And not so sure on the Oline Coach either. We have a Beast recruiter in Jones as well in Martinez, Thig and ZA in particular. We have some really good recruiters but need that OC and Oline Coach that also are not only good recruiters but that can develop players and be a good playcaller.

I keep hearing people say this, but really don't hold much water. CBJ is a mid major coach from that same conference as Bajakian. Do you really think CBJ doesn't have anything to do with the OL or any of the play calling? Many either don't know or seem to forget that he was a OC at 2 different schools for 7 years. To point all fingers at Bajakian and turn a blind eye to Butch is denial of the truth.

 

[T-for-Tennessee]

IMHO, every situation is different. Depends on the talent at your disposal. Gus Malzahn takes Gene Chizik's players to the national championship game in no time flat. I'm pretty sure Butch didn't have that luxury. No need to talk regime change for at least 2 more years. If Butch can get it done, it could be good for a long time. Patience.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

What exactly is the answer until the young guys get more experience and the promising new recruits get on campus? Do you think lack of talent and experience can just be schemed away by a coach? If that was realistic, no coach would put much emphasis on recruiting.

Football is not just a chess match. The pieces have to be able to perform and outperform the other coach's pieces.

I wouldn't complain about starting two true freshmen on the O line while I have red shirt freshmen and sophomores that were just as highly rated as the starters coming into college on the bench as a start.

And yes, scheme can cover talent deficiencies to an extent.

Not saying it is a cure all but Kiffin managed to figure out a way to play to Crompton's strengths in 2009.

Cutcliffe helped the team turn it around in 2006 and 2007 with unproven O linemen and guys like Austin Rogers and Lucas Taylor as starting WR.

That's just examples related to the Vols in recent years of coaches using their schemes to elevate the players.

I don't think it's a lack of trying from Jones and Bajakian, but we haven't seen that happen from them yet.

 

[sjt18]

I think the folks the OP is referring to need to remember that after Dooley was fired, none of the "big name" coaches that were approached by UT wanted the job. And, the one that thought about taking it was nearly on the plane headed to Knoxville then turned it down in the 11th hour. Those coaches understood how decimated this program was, how difficult it is to win consistently in the SEC, and the expectations of the high-dollar donors & fan base.

That's the reality we live in at the moment. The best thing we can do (even if it's painful) is to give this coach (and whatever staff he's willing to risk his reputation with) the full four years he signed on for. That in itself will aid in the attractiveness of the job if another coaching search were to actually be necessary.

That is NOT true. The next coach if it becomes necessary to let Jones go won't care about any of that. They will care about the offer and the condition of the program to include the talent on the roster. They'll assess the immediate benefit to them but also the prospects for great success. If Jones could even just hold the '15 class that is committed now... UT would have little trouble attracting an "in demand" coach.

 

[Volview]

Someone mentioned the other day about hiring Quarles (High School HC), I think this may be a genius plan.

I would hire him as some type of offensive coach. He gets every drop of talent from his players.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

Do I sense some guilt by association?

No, you sense some amusement from me at your sheer stupidity.

 

[sjt18]

What exactly is the answer until the young guys get more experience and the promising new recruits get on campus? Do you think lack of talent and experience can just be schemed away by a coach?

To an extent... yes it can. Kiffin schemed around speed deficiencies in the front 7 on D and OL deficiencies... and QB for that matter. There are MANY examples of coaches doing just that... scheming around weaknesses.

If that was realistic, no coach would put much emphasis on recruiting.

You would rather not have to scheme around weaknesses... that doesn't mean that top shelf coaches can't and don't do it when necessary.

Football is not just a chess match. The pieces have to be able to perform and outperform the other coach's pieces.

No. Not "just" a chess match but one of the keys to being a great coach is covering your weaknesses and exploiting those of your opponent. UT's OL has been exposed for how many weeks now? I won't claim to have all the solutions... but I'm pretty sure that doing the same thing week after week probably isn't it.

 

[VolFan4Life87]

Would you accept a coaching position if they told you you only have two years to make a championship contender out of a team that's been down for several years.

7-8 wins in year 2 is not asking a whole lot. 3M+ a year pretty much necessitates it

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

I have seen substantial improvement with Worley this year over last year, especially seeing as how he has no protection from the O-line. The same can happen with Peterman and/or Dobbs next year. I am a little more concerned with the O-line, as I think it would be good to have 1 or 2 more quality recruits, but there are a couple of guys (Blair, Moseley) who are not playing this year who may help out next year. And yes, Butch is highly paid, so he should not be immune to criticism, but the criticism is often due to unrealistic expectations, especially considering the lack of experience and depth on the team (for example, missing the 2 guys mentioned above).

I can agree to an extent on Worley.

I am still disappointed with his decision making but he has proven without a doubt his resiliency and the accuracy when he has had time has improved.

Agree on the criticism from unrealistic expectations as well. I don't think anyone with any common sense expected a championship run this season.

However, the head coach himself expected a bowl to start the season and that appears to be slipping away.

"I want to continue to stay positive and move forward, but it’s expected that we go to bowl games from here on out. That’s our goal."

Plenty of season left but I don't like our chances much if Worley is indeed out for an extended period.

 

[sjt18]

IMHO, every situation is different. Depends on the talent at your disposal. Gus Malzahn takes Gene Chizik's players to the national championship game in no time flat. I'm pretty sure Butch didn't have that luxury. No need to talk regime change for at least 2 more years. If Butch can get it done, it could be good for a long time. Patience.

And for the millionth time.... Freeze inherited a very similar situation at Ole Miss and has them competing for the toughest division in CFB... and maybe of all time in CFB. He improved wins immediately even while recruiting and developing players. Saban is Saban but he didn't inherit a great situation at Bama.

I think Stoops and UK are an illusion for the most part... but they did beat USCe in his 2nd year and he has nowhere near as much talent as Jones has. Oh, interestingly enough, they're starting a Sr, 2 Jrs, a RS Fr, and a Soph on their OL... Three upperclassmen... just like UT. Two young players.... and Jones DID have the option for his two young guys to be 2nd year players.

 

[sjt18]

Would you accept a coaching position if they told you you only have two years to make a championship contender out of a team that's been down for several years.

Who did that? Asking for a bowl within the first two years is well short of asking for a championship contender.

 

[UTFootballFan]

To an extent... yes it can. Kiffin schemed around speed deficiencies in the front 7 on D and OL deficiencies... and QB for that matter. There are MANY examples of coaches doing just that... scheming around weaknesses.

You would rather not have to scheme around weaknesses... that doesn't mean that top shelf coaches can't and don't do it when necessary.


No. Not "just" a chess match but one of the keys to being a great coach is covering your weaknesses and exploiting those of your opponent. UT's OL has been exposed for how many weeks now? I won't claim to have all the solutions... but I'm pretty sure that doing the same thing week after week probably isn't it.

Coaches can do only do so much by scheming and strategy.

 

[UTFootballFan]

7-8 wins in year 2 is not asking a whole lot. 3M+ a year pretty much necessitates it

Isn't he competing against other highly paid coaches, some of which have better and more experienced players?

 

[UTFootballFan]

Who did that? Asking for a bowl within the first two years is well short of asking for a championship contender.

Go look at the threads on this site where people are whining and comparing UT to some of the top ranked teams in the country.

By the way, when is just a bowl game enough?

 

[T-for-Tennessee]

And for the millionth time.... Freeze inherited a very similar situation at Ole Miss and has them competing for the toughest division in CFB... and maybe of all time in CFB. He improved wins immediately even while recruiting and developing players. Saban is Saban but he didn't inherit a great situation at Bama.

I think Stoops and UK are an illusion for the most part... but they did beat USCe in his 2nd year and he has nowhere near as much talent as Jones has. Oh, interestingly enough, they're starting a Sr, 2 Jrs, a RS Fr, and a Soph on their OL... Three upperclassmen... just like UT. Two young players.... and Jones DID have the option for his two young guys to be 2nd year players.

You make a good point, but then I look at Mississippi State. Patience paid off. Again, every situation is different. Don't get me wrong: there clearly comes a time to pull the plug. I don't think we are close to that point yet. We'll know it when/if we get there.

 

[Spartacavolus]

I've got the impression from this board that the overwhelming consensus is that people are not calling for Butch to be fired.

there are other boards that dog him on a daily basis. say he's nothing but a cliché coach with big east coaching abilities. That's the same as.

 

[VolFan4Life87]

Isn't he competing against other highly paid coaches, some of which have better and more experienced players?

There will never be a shortage of excuses. At some point a coach here has to win, in particular win games you're not expected to win.

 

[sjt18]

Go look at the threads on this site where people are whining and comparing UT to some of the top ranked teams in the country.

By the way, when is just a bowl game enough?

When it is a step up from the dung heap where UT has been since Fulmer tanked the program toward competing for championships again. Bowl game this year. At least be in the conversation for the East for part of next year... then compete for championships.

When... not IF but WHEN... UT gets back to the top, it won't be a 6 or 7 year "process". It will be immediate then steady improvement within a 3 or 4 year period.

The LONGER UT keeps a coach that is not winning (which hurts recruiting after year 2)... the longer it will be before someone successfully turns things around.

At most programs but especially one like UT that depends on out of state talent, you can never afford a coach that cannot win recruiting battles. Jones has done that with dreams and promises. But every loss regardless of whether you and I understand or not make those dreams and promises less believable to recruits who are being asked to leave home to play for UT.

 

[sjt18]

You make a good point, but then I look at Mississippi State. Patience paid off.

He won 9 games in year two at a program that had had 1 winning season in the previous 9. They didn't have to be too patient. He gave them reason to hope almost right away.

Again, every situation is different. Don't get me wrong: there clearly comes a time to pull the plug. I don't think we are close to that point yet. We'll know it when/if we get there.

I think the first point where you really sit and consider that is after next season at the earliest. The wins between now and then should be the evaluation tool.

Six or 7 this year then say 8 or 9 next year while competing for the East... and I'd be pretty satisfied. That would be progress that points to possible championships in the future. A losing season this year followed by a 6 or 7 win season next fall would suggest the opposite.

 

[UTFootballFan]

It doesn't to appear to have hampered his recruiting yet. He has some very promising recruit commitments out to 2015 and 2016.

Do you live up to the same standard as you hold the UT coach? Have you enjoyed more success? If not, who are you to call for his job? There are more successful coaches that took several years to get their teams on top than those that have done it in a year or two.

 

[sjt18]

I can agree to an extent on Worley.

I am still disappointed with his decision making but he has proven without a doubt his resiliency and the accuracy when he has had time has improved.

Agree on the criticism from unrealistic expectations as well. I don't think anyone with any common sense expected a championship run this season.

However, the head coach himself expected a bowl to start the season and that appears to be slipping away.

"I want to continue to stay positive and move forward, but it’s expected that we go to bowl games from here on out. That’s our goal."

Plenty of season left but I don't like our chances much if Worley is indeed out for an extended period.

I believed Worley would be the starter. I defended him not because I favor him over the others but because he was being attacked. I see things to like about all of UT's QB's... and would defend any of them from unfair criticism.

All that said... I think Worley has gotten gun shy. Who could blame him really but his decision making seems to be getting worse. He's rushing when he doesn't have to. He's even stepping into trouble IMO because he doesn't trust the OL.

I hope that if he's going to finish out the season that he'll get this week off and get his head straight.

FTR, I think Dobbs can lead the team to a bowl. I like Peterman but do not think he can.

 

[Pride85]

IMHO, every situation is different. Depends on the talent at your disposal. Gus Malzahn takes Gene Chizik's players to the national championship game in no time flat. I'm pretty sure Butch didn't have that luxury. No need to talk regime change for at least 2 more years. If Butch can get it done, it could be good for a long time. Patience.

To further your point, Gus Malzahn had the advantage of having actually recruited most of Chisik's players to fit his system when he was the coordinator at Auburn. He knew exactly what players he was getting and had already been involved in coaching them long before he was ever the head coach. Anyone who doesn't think the reason for Chisik's success are very short sighted. Think Fulmer and Cutcliff.

 

[VolFan4Life87]

To further your point, Gus Malzahn had the advantage of having actually recruited most of Chisik's players to fit his system when he was the coordinator at Auburn. He knew exactly what players he was getting and had already been involved in coaching them long before he was ever the head coach. Anyone who doesn't think the reason for Chisik's success are very short sighted. Think Fulmer and Cutcliff.

Yes. Our situation is not comparable to Auburns. A better comparison is Ole Miss.