Official Global Warming thread (merged)

#3,277
#3,277
BartW said:
For example, according to George W. Bush, "The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments have significantly reduced air pollution, especially through the innovative “cap-and trade” acid rain control program. [It] has been a resounding success, cutting annual sulfur dioxide emissions in the first phase by 50 percent below allowed levels. Emissions were reduced faster than required, and at far less cost”¦The program only requires a handful of EPA employees to operate."

Cap and Trade: Acid Rain Program Results
The Political History of Cap and Trade
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll take a look at this. On the surface I'd say that a program aimed at electric utilities is apples and oranges with a program aimed at any producers of carbon.
 
#3,278
#3,278
BartW said:
For example, according to George W. Bush, "The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments have significantly reduced air pollution, especially through the innovative “cap-and trade” acid rain control program. [It] has been a resounding success, cutting annual sulfur dioxide emissions in the first phase by 50 percent below allowed levels. Emissions were reduced faster than required, and at far less cost”¦The program only requires a handful of EPA employees to operate."

Cap and Trade: Acid Rain Program Results
The Political History of Cap and Trade
Click to expand...

The Clean Air Act didn't solve any problems. The free market did.
 
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#3,280
#3,280
Sandvol said:
The Clean Air Act didn't solve any problems. The free market did.
Click to expand...

the free market has also reduced carbon emissions to levels Kyoto wanted to impose through government force

Bart's understanding of how the free market actually works is as tenuous as LG's
 
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#3,283
#3,283
Sandvol said:
The Clean Air Act didn't solve any problems. The free market did.
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They both did, that’s the point…

Also, are you admitting that acid rain is/was a problem now? I thought it was one of them liberal science conspiracies, no?
MG1968 said:
the free market has also reduced carbon emissions to levels Kyoto wanted to impose through government force

Bart's understanding of how the free market actually works is as tenuous as LG's
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tumblr_mrqpn4MhAm1ru2hfko1_500.jpg


The US hasn't met its Kyoto target despite the recession and rise of fracking. Our target was -7% by 2012 relative to 1990. As you can see here US GHG emissions have risen 1% since 1990. In the same time period, global emissions increased over 50%.

Furthermore, if the free market were to reduce emissions below target levels there would be no government force imposing anything. Ya dig? That’s how cap & trade works. Your post is nonsense
 
#3,285
#3,285
BartW said:
They both did, that’s the point…

Also, are you admitting that acid rain is/was a problem now? I thought it was one of them liberal science conspiracies, no?

tumblr_mrqpn4MhAm1ru2hfko1_500.jpg


The US hasn't met its Kyoto target despite the recession and rise of fracking. Our target was -7% by 2012 relative to 1990. As you can see here US GHG emissions have risen 1% since 1990. In the same time period, global emissions increased over 50%.

Furthermore, if the free market were to reduce emissions below target levels there would be no government force imposing anything. Ya dig? That’s how cap & trade works. Your post is nonsense
Click to expand...

I didn't know we'd ever discussed acid rain. I've only studied CO2. And, if it were a problem the free market would solve it. The government is always the last to act and always after the fact and they are always self serving.
 
#3,286
#3,286
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#3,287
#3,287
Sandvol said:
I didn't know we'd ever discussed acid rain. I've only studied CO2.
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You’ve only “studied” CO2? :birgits_giggle:

Well the conversation you cluelessly butted into was about the success of emissions trading in addressing acid rain (1990 Clean Air Act). And we have discussed acid rain on several occasions; don’t play dumb. I know you’re one of the resident climate deniers that categorically dismisses all environmental science.
Sandvol said:
And, if it were a problem the free market would solve it. The government is always the last to act and always after the fact and they are always self serving.
Click to expand...
Do people really buy this crap? You worship the unchecked free market like an omnipotent infallible entity - like a God! Is there no scenario you can envision where government intervention is a good thing?

Market Failure - Externalities
 
#3,288
#3,288
BartW said:
You’ve only “studied” CO2? :birgits_giggle:

Well the conversation you cluelessly butted into was about the success of emissions trading in addressing acid rain (1990 Clean Air Act). And we have discussed acid rain on several occasions; don’t play dumb. I know you’re one of the resident climate deniers that categorically dismisses all environmental science.

Do people really buy this crap? You worship the unchecked free market like an omnipotent infallible entity - like a God! Is there no scenario you can envision where government intervention is a good thing?

Market Failure - Externalities
Click to expand...


No, don't ever remember us discussing acid rain. Maybe you were discussing acid rain with yourself. Government intervention can and should work on the local level as our framers intended. The Federal Government should be limited. The EPA, SEC, DOE, FTC, FBI, Secret Service, TSA, IRS, FDA, USDA, FDIC etc. should all be abolished. I'm sure there are a few others I can't think of right now. A pure free market is perfect.
 
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#3,289
#3,289
Sandvol said:
No, don't ever remember us discussing acid rain. Maybe you were discussing acid rain with yourself.
Click to expand...

Have you been asleep for the last couple of pages? What about these?
Sandvol said:
You forgot to mention the acid rain and the ozone depletion. Those didn't work out either.
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Sandvol said:
Here's a better list:

1. CFCs and ozone depletion
2. SO2 and acid rain
3. Santa Claus
4. Easter Bunny
5. Tooth Fairy
6. Jack Frost
7. Evolution
8. Leprechauns
9. Big Foot
10. DDT
11. AGW
Click to expand...
........
Sandvol said:
A pure free market is perfect.
Click to expand...
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Exodus 20:3-5
 
#3,290
#3,290
BartW said:
Have you been asleep for the last couple of pages? What about these?


........

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Exodus 20:3-5
Click to expand...

Ah the biblical meaning of the word perfect misunderstood again.
 
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#3,291
#3,291
BartW said:
Have you been asleep for the last couple of pages? What about these?


........

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Exodus 20:3-5
Click to expand...

Man you really worked to find those. But, I don't remember a discussion about it. My contention is if acid rain was a problem then the free market solved it. Not the Clean Air Act. Just like if CO2 is a problem then the free market will solve it. Government doesn't solve any problems. It is good at redistribution of wealth, enriching itself and going to war but that's about it.

"Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". That's funny you use that argument since Big Government is your God. What you statists don't understand is we need government to do very little. (Establish justice, provide for the common defense, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty, etc.)
 
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#3,293
#3,293
Sandvol said:
My contention is if acid rain was a problem then the free market solved it. Not the Clean Air Act. Just like if CO2 is a problem then the free market will solve it. Government doesn't solve any problems.
Click to expand...
and bump:
Sandvol said:
A pure free market is perfect.
Click to expand...

So let me get this straight: global warming and acid rain couldn’t possibly be real problems because if they were the free market would have solved them already? You don’t even know if acid rain was a problem, but you know that if it was a problem the free market must have solved it… Do you not see how ridiculous that is?

I’m a libertarian but like most on here I’ll readily admit that a completely unchecked free market doesn’t work. Like most I believe the government is necessary to solve some problems. Establish justice, provide for the common defense, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty, etc… these all apply to protecting our environment – our home – our children’s home. How does your pure free market manage pollution? How does a pure free market stop global warming? What makes you think entrepreneurs will sacrifice short-term profit for the long-term good of the economy and human civilization in general?

I’m glad you posted this because it really gets to the crux of the issue, which isn't the science. It's your politics. You live in a black and white fantasy world where free market = pure good and government = pure evil. Like I’ve been saying, you’re an ideologue. And don’t get me wrong, freedom is a completely worthy ideal. **** the government! But I think y’all will agree that anarchy simply is not a realistic or desirable goal.

Call me a statist all you want, you’ve made it painfully obvious that you’re the extremist here. You have no legitimate objections to the science but reject it anyway because you don’t like its implications for your worldview. Congratulations, you are the quintessential science denialist.

38247465.jpg
 
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#3,296
#3,296
BartW said:
and bump:

So let me get this straight: global warming and acid rain couldn’t possibly be real problems because if they were the free market would have solved them already? You don’t even know if acid rain was a problem, but you know that if it was a problem the free market must have solved it… Do you not see how ridiculous that is?

I’m a libertarian but like most on here I’ll readily admit that a completely unchecked free market doesn’t work. Like most I believe the government is necessary to solve some problems. Establish justice, provide for the common defense, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty, etc… these all apply to protecting our environment – our home – our children’s home. How does your pure free market manage pollution? How does a pure free market stop global warming? What makes you think entrepreneurs will sacrifice short-term profit for the long-term good of the economy and human civilization in general?

I’m glad you posted this because it really gets to the crux of the issue, which isn't the science. It's your politics. You live in a black and white fantasy world where free market = pure good and government = pure evil. Like I’ve been saying, you’re an ideologue. And don’t get me wrong, freedom is a completely worthy ideal. **** the government! But I think y’all will agree that anarchy simply is not a realistic or desirable goal.

Call me a statist all you want, you’ve made it painfully obvious that you’re the extremist here. You have no legitimate objections to the science but reject it anyway because you don’t like its implications for your worldview. Congratulations, you are the quintessential science denialist.

38247465.jpg
Click to expand...

You are a statist Bart. You're no more libertarian than a man in the moon. You see no solutions except government solutions. The government always acts after the fact. The free market is the only thing that ever solves anything. Take a look at China for instance. They've had no desire to solve any pollution problems until they started getting pressure from the free market. The Clean Air Act was passed after almost all entities had taken steps to curb emissions. (The reason I say if it was a problem is because I didn't really pay much attention back then. But, I lean toward it must have been some problem because the free market took steps.) The government is always the last to act and they are the last bad actor and they only act to enrich themselves and not solve any problems. Then they become burdensome and continue to use the laws to hurt private industry while continually propping themselves up-i.e. café standards. It is funny how you statists are so fearful of an unfettered free market. We don't have one here or anywhere for that matter because you statists never give them a chance. But, our free market is still strong enough to solve most problems. If statists are allowed to continue more draconian environmental laws they will eventually kill what free markets we have. I'm going to do everything I can to see that we have a chance to achieve free market solutions and I will continue to speak out against tyranny. We don't need cap and tax or any other law that enriches our federal government.
 
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#3,297
#3,297
Sandvol said:
You are a statist Bart. You're no more libertarian than a man in the moon. You see no solutions except government solutions. The government always acts after the fact. The free market is the only thing that ever solves anything. Take a look at China for instance. They've had no desire to solve any pollution problems until they started getting pressure from the free market. The Clean Air Act was passed after almost all entities had taken steps to curb emissions. (The reason I say if it was a problem is because I didn't really pay much attention back then. But, I lean toward it must have been some problem because the free market took steps.) The government is always the last to act and they are the last bad actor and they only act to enrich themselves and not solve any problems. Then they become burdensome and continue to use the laws to hurt private industry while continually propping themselves up-i.e. café standards. It is funny how you statists are so fearful of an unfettered free market. We don't have one here or anywhere for that matter because you statists never give them a chance. But, our free market is still strong enough to solve most problems. If statists are allowed to continue more draconian environmental laws they will eventually kill what free markets we have. I'm going to do everything I can to see that we have a chance to achieve free market solutions and I will continue to speak out against tyranny. We don't need cap and tax or any other law that enriches our federal government.
Click to expand...

Yawn, same ole rhetoric... You didn’t answer any of my questions. In your utopia, how does the free market handle pollution? How does it stop global warming? Specifically, how do you think the free market solved the acid rain problem? How about ozone depletion? What do you think of the Reagan administration using cap-and-trade to phase out leaded gasoline?
 
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#3,299
#3,299
BartW said:
Yawn, same ole rhetoric... You didn’t answer any of my questions. In your utopia, how does the free market handle pollution? How does it stop global warming? Specifically, how do you think the free market solved the acid rain problem? How about ozone depletion? What do you think of the Reagan administration using cap-and-trade to phase out leaded gasoline?
Click to expand...

Do you understand how tradable permits harm market forces and violate property rights? Tradable permits allow the polluter to violate property rights. And, then this system allows the politicians to abuse the system and enrich themselves. What do insider trading rules do for the average investor? Nothing really but it just allows the political elites to control who gets the inside information. Anything set up and established by government is inherently corrupt. Why so trusting of government? I know, because you're a statist and government is the be all end all. As for Reagan I know you're probably distorting what he did and what his role was if any. He despised statism more than I do.
 
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#3,300
#3,300
Sandvol said:
Do you understand how tradable permits harm market forces and violate property rights? Tradable permits allow the polluter to violate property rights. And, then this system allows the politicians to abuse the system and enrich themselves. What do insider trading rules do for the average investor? Nothing really but it just allows the political elites to control who gets the inside information. Anything set up and established by government is inherently corrupt. Why so trusting of government? I know, because you're a statist and government is the be all end all. As for Reagan I know you're probably distorting what he did and what his role was if any. He despised statism more than I do.
Click to expand...

Again your post is completely devoid of substance. You're not supporting your argument, you're just grasping at straws. The Reagan administration let refineries trade pollution credits to phase out leaded gasoline. He also signed the Montreal Protocol which established a cap-and-trade system for CFCs. Look it up :yes:

"If we’ve learned any lessons during the past few decades, perhaps the most important is that preservation of our environment is not a partisan challenge; it’s common sense. Our physical health, our social happiness, and our economic well-being will be sustained only by all of us working in partnership as thoughtful, effective stewards of our natural resources."

— Ronald Reagan
 
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