Coach Martin and recruiting

#151
#151
VolArmy74 said:
No, Richardson is a quality 3 star. He is finally peaking as a senior.

When your roster mostly consists of those type players you're going to contend for the NCAA 1 or maybe 2 out of every 4 seasons.

True 5 stars have seasons similar or better than Josh this year as freshmen.

People love to fuss about Scotty Hopson, but he averaged 10 ppg as a freshman, about what Josh did this year as a jr. Tobias was even bigger impact and averaged 15 ppg. Ramar was a 5* by some services, he averaged 11 ppg as a freshman. Duke averaged 8.5 points and 5 rebs a game as a freshman.

Josh averaged 2ppg as a freshman. While he's turned into a very good player, those above are the more typical impact of 4/5 star players, some have much bigger impact that those guys above. It's why Florida doesn't have big drop offs, or Duke, or the other people who are always signing top 20 classes.

We've not signed a top 30 class in the last 4 seasons now. I believe this year's class is 49th. That's not going to be good enough to compete going forward.
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Florida doesn't have big drop offs? I guess, if don't count 2007-2010.

Also you're getting caught up on PPG. I take junior year Richardson over all but Harris. Consider what he did going one on one with Stauskas, who will be a lottery pick. Not only did he hold Stauskas to 14 pts (3 below his average) but he put up 19 on him.

So, in this match up, Josh Richardson was +5 against Michigan's best player, and future first round pick. That's accounts for both offense and defense. I would say that was a 5* performance under pressure, wouldn't you?
 
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#152
#152
drewtigeralum said:
Florida doesn't have big drop offs? I guess, if don't count 2007-2010.

Also you're getting caught up on PPG. I take junior year Richardson over all but Harris. Consider what he did going one on one with Stauskas, who will be a lottery pick. Not only did he hold Stauskas to 14 pts (3 below his average) but he put up 19 on him.

So, in this match up, Josh Richardson was +5 against Michigan's best player, and future first round pick. That's accounts for both offense and defense. I would say that was a 5* performance under pressure, wouldn't you?
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Ramar Smith was also a great defender like Josh, as a freshman and sophomore. I've laid it out as plain as I can and the facts back it up. If you want to be a program that competes for championships, you have to sign top 20 recruiting classes.

The goal here should be to compete for championships.

Florida had 2 NIT years in the last 17 years, they aren't the best example you could have thrown out.
 
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#153
#153
That's a good analysis except for the part about recruiting guys to your system. I look at CCM's recruits and it appears he is recruiting 180 degrees away from a "half court defense"/"motion offense system." He's recruiting guys for a full court pressure, extended half court zone defense and a run and score off turnovers offense. To run motion offense, you need spot up shooters. CCM hasn't recruited a single spot up shooter since he's been here.


drewtigeralum said:
I'm going to just go ahead and help you guys out with some of the players Martin and the Vols are going to sign, and yes, there will be some gnashing of teeth about the "star" level of some recruits in the future.

Martin runs a specific system of offense and defense. You can debate the merits of the system he runs, but as long as he is the head coach he is going to run mainly man to man defense, and mostly motion offense.

Generally speaking, Martin is going to look at defense first for a good number of recruits. This is going to upset a few people because defense doesn't get you the star rankings. Martin can't simply go out and sign the highest rated players and force them into his system, because that doesn't work.

There were 2 starters on this years team (Maymon & MacRae), that weren't Martin recruits and didn't "fit" his system, and Martin did an excellent job of adjusting in order to work those 2 into the system. I think it will be a while, for better or worse, before you see Martin put a ball stopper on the floor like MacRae. This isn't an insult to MacRae, it's his game, and when it is on, he is a devastating offensive player, but when it is off, he kills the offense in the half court, and then kills the defense on the other end. I also don't think you are going to see a reincarnation of the bash brothers anytime soon. Playing 2 non shooting players like Maymon and Stokes at the same time is difficult to facilitate in the motion offense. Martin went to his 3 out 2 in look some, and I will tell you now, that is a shift from his normal set, and was a good adjustment to utilize his best players. Expect to see more athletic 4's like Davis in the future.

How do I know recruiting highest ranked players available and then fitting them in doesn't work? As a lifelong Purdue fan, I've been watching the 4* train wreck in West Lafayette over the last 4 years. Painter decided that he was going to sign the best available player, regardless of fit, and figure out how to use them later. This has resulted in nothing but terrible defense, terrible offense, poor team chemistry, and a rash of transfers.

I wouldn't bash the incoming recruiting class until you actually see them on the floor. It's quite possible that they actually fit better and contribute sooner, than players ranked above them.
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#154
#154
VolArmy74 said:
Ramar Smith was also a great defender like Josh, as a freshman and sophomore. I've laid it out as plain as I can and the facts back it up. If you want to be a program that competes for championships, you have to sign top 20 recruiting classes.

The goal here should be to compete for championships.

Florida had 2 NIT years in the last 17 years, they aren't the best example you could have thrown out.
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Quick question, I'm looking for UConn and Wisconsin in the recruiting top 20 and can't find them. Could you help me out?
 
#155
#155
germanicus said:
That's a good analysis except for the part about recruiting guys to your system. I look at CCM's recruits and it appears he is recruiting 180 degrees away from a "half court defense"/"motion offense system." He's recruiting guys for a full court pressure, extended half court zone defense and a run and score off turnovers offense. To run motion offense, you need spot up shooters. CCM hasn't recruited a single spot up shooter since he's been here.
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To run the motion the way U.T. runs it you don't need pure spot up shooters. Yes, having one or two knock down shooters helps, obviously, but the guys Martin is recruiting are defense first players. That said, Hubbs was supposed to be a pretty good shooter coming out, and Cornish is also supposed to be able to shoot. Like I said, defense first, then guys who are willing to be patient on offense.
 
#156
#156
drewtigeralum said:
Quick question, I'm looking for UConn and Wisconsin in the recruiting top 20 and can't find them. Could you help me out?
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Looks like 2010 and 2011 for UConn, so their juniors and seniors. When they last made the final 4 and then won the NC, #5 and #7 in the nation in the years leading up to it.

As for Wisconsin, they do not have any. This is also their first final for since 2000. Occasionally teams slip into the final 4 without a top 20 class, like Wichita and VCU. But no team has won it without signing that level of class since the 1980s. 43 of the last 57 final four participants have had top 20 classes leading into it. That's just going back to 2000. But the blood is still blue if you go back through the 1990s.
 
#157
#157
I know one of my favorite young players that Coach Zo recruited is Armani Moore. Dude may have the highest vertical on the team. Looks like he has springs in his shoes. Regardless I like his defensive game and blocking ability along with his rebounding and ways he gets to the paint. If he can improve his jump shot in like his potential. To be a josh Richardson type player as far as developing.
 
#158
#158
ERvolsfan said:
I know one of my favorite young players that Coach Zo recruited is Armani Moore. Dude may have the highest vertical on the team. Looks like he has springs in his shoes. Regardless I like his defensive game and blocking ability along with his rebounding and ways he gets to the paint. If he can improve his jump shot in like his potential. To be a josh Richardson type player as far as developing.
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Yes, by the time he's a junior or senior he can be a productive player. Like most of Zo's recruits. It's the 1 in 4 model unless you are just an exceptional floor coach.
 
#159
#159
VolArmy74 said:
Looks like 2010 and 2011 for UConn, so their juniors and seniors. When they last made the final 4 and then won the NC, #5 and #7 in the nation in the years leading up to it.

As for Wisconsin, they do not have any. This is also their first final for since 2000. Occasionally teams slip into the final 4 without a top 20 class, like Wichita and VCU. But no team has won it without signing that level of class since the 1980s. 43 of the last 57 final four participants have had top 20 classes leading into it. That's just going back to 2000. But the blood is still blue if you go back through the 1990s.
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No doubt recruiting is important. I will certainly give you that. The blue bloods in college basketball will always be the blue bloods. U.T. isn't going to recruit on that level. It's not a bad thing, it's just that there is a limited #of 5* players to go around. Pearl did a good job of signing a few 5*'s, and Martin has 2 on his recruiting record as well. Once you get past the first 30 or so players though, I don't think there is much of a difference between the players ranked between 30-150.
 
#160
#160
drewtigeralum said:
No doubt recruiting is important. I will certainly give you that. The blue bloods in college basketball will always be the blue bloods. U.T. isn't going to recruit on that level. It's not a bad thing, it's just that there is a limited #of 5* players to go around. Pearl did a good job of signing a few 5*'s, and Martin has 2 on his recruiting record as well. Once you get past the first 30 or so players though, I don't think there is much of a difference between the players ranked between 30-150.
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We were recruiting on that level with Pearl. We had two top 10 and two top 20 classes under Pearl. Which explains why we were winning over 70% of our games, achieved a #1 ranking and were able to maintain a presence in the tourney. It's also why hopes were very high going forward that we'd break through into the Final Four.
 
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#161
#161
VolArmy74 said:
We were recruiting on that level with Pearl. We had two top 10 and two top 20 classes under Pearl. Which explains why we were winning over 70% of our games, achieved a #1 ranking and were able to maintain a presence in the tourney.
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Pearl did an excellent job of recruiting, but he had a high level of misses as well with that level of recruiting. His 3* players often times contributed as much, if not more, than his 4* players. Guys like Harris and Hopson, obviously were huge gets for the program. I just think once you get past the first wave of elite recruits, it's a grab bag, and it's really hard to see the difference between say the 31st recruit and the 120th ranked recruit. Obviously though, the more top 30 guys you can pull in, the better chance you have.
 
#167
#167
drewtigeralum said:
Pearl did an excellent job of recruiting, but he had a high level of misses as well with that level of recruiting. His 3* players often times contributed as much, if not more, than his 4* players. Guys like Harris and Hopson, obviously were huge gets for the program. I just think once you get past the first wave of elite recruits, it's a grab bag, and it's really hard to see the difference between say the 31st recruit and the 120th ranked recruit. Obviously though, the more top 30 guys you can pull in, the better chance you have.
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Pearl didn't really sign many 3 star or worse recruits, I think maybe 5 total in 6 years. Ryan Childress, Brian Williams, Josh Tabb, Melvin Goins, and Bobby Maze were the only people we signed that weren't rated 4* by at least one of the services. Daniel West came here briefly as a 3 star, but as a walk-on.
 
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#168
#168
I'm willing to be educated. How does Tennessee run motion in a way that doesn't require spot up shooters? I didn't see what my conception of motion to be much this season. Didn't seen many cutters and guys getting passes in position to make shots. Didn't see guys popping open off screens much. Most of the shots came off guys creating their own shots. Is that a form of motion?

drewtigeralum said:
To run the motion the way U.T. runs it you don't need pure spot up shooters. Yes, having one or two knock down shooters helps, obviously, but the guys Martin is recruiting are defense first players. That said, Hubbs was supposed to be a pretty good shooter coming out, and Cornish is also supposed to be able to shoot. Like I said, defense first, then guys who are willing to be patient on offense.
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#169
#169
VolArmy74 said:
Pearl didn't really sign many 3 star or worse recruits, I think maybe 5 total in 6 years. Ryan Childress, Brian Williams, Josh Tabb, Melvin Goins, and Bobby Maze were the only people we signed that weren't rated 4* by at least one of the services. Daniel West came here briefly as a 3 star, but as a walk-on.
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He still had a several 3* players from the previous regime on his first few squads, and they played better than several 4* players Pearl signed. I agree that once you get past the first 150 players there is a big drop off, but a high 3* player and a mid to low 4* player is pretty much the same thing. They are all going to have things in their game that they need to work on and they are all going to have tings in their game that are good. I think players with good offense and deficient defense usually get ranked higher than players with good defense and deficient offense. It's really all in the eye of the beholder at that point.
 
#170
#170
germanicus said:
I'm willing to be educated. How does Tennessee run motion in a way that doesn't require spot up shooters? I didn't see what my conception of motion to be much this season. Didn't seen many cutters and guys getting passes in position to make shots. Didn't see guys popping open off screens much. Most of the shots came off guys creating their own shots. Is that a form of motion?
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It's funny, because the offense U.T. ran this year, wasn't any form of offense I've ever seen Martin run. The 3 out 2 in power basketball does require spot up shooter. I just don't think, based on recruiting, that Martin is going to stick with 2 power players in the post. When you have 2 power players in the post, you certainly need spot up shooter, but when you play more of a 4 out 1 in offense, the rim is more open to players who drive. Shooters are important though, and hopefully Richardson, Hubbs, and Cornish can provide it next year. Also don't discount Reece or Moore stepping up in the shooting department next season.
 
#171
#171
So, did they not run motion this year?

Richardson and Hubbs should (I hope) get close to replicating Richardson and McRae this year. As for Cornish, he was a 35 pct FG , 27 pct 3 point shot, 51 pct FT shooter in the 20 game EYBL last summer. He'll be more of a slasher than outside shooter.

I won't say "never" on Reese and Moore, but thinking either of them is going to step up and be a good three ball shooter is a leap of faith.

drewtigeralum said:
It's funny, because the offense U.T. ran this year, wasn't any form of offense I've ever seen Martin run. The 3 out 2 in power basketball does require spot up shooter. I just don't think, based on recruiting, that Martin is going to stick with 2 power players in the post. When you have 2 power players in the post, you certainly need spot up shooter, but when you play more of a 4 out 1 in offense, the rim is more open to players who drive. Shooters are important though, and hopefully Richardson, Hubbs, and Cornish can provide it next year. Also don't discount Reece or Moore stepping up in the shooting department next season.
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#172
#172
Martin stopped running his offense, which is one of the biggest reasons we went on a run and avgd @ 78 pts during those wins. He stopped holding players back and they attacked early, rather than wasted motion offense 35 feet out. We had one loss with 7 turnovers made while not making a move to the basket. All from trying to set up set plays. That was his offense and it sucked. When he went away from it, guys played without a leash and gained rhythm and confidence. Offense and defense picked up as well.
That's why you hadn't seen it. That offense is why basketball fans and those of us that knew we had talent were not happy.

Now, if you can stay on point, feel free to discuss. If you want to dramatize it or make up something cute, keep it to yourself.
 
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#173
#173
Spartacavolus said:
Martin stopped running his offense, which is one of the biggest reasons we went on a run and avgd @ 78 pts during those wins. He stopped holding players back and they attacked early, rather than wasted motion offense 35 feet out. We had one loss with 7 turnovers made while not making a move to the basket. All from trying to set up set plays. That was his offense and it sucked. When he went away from it, guys played without a leash and gained rhythm and confidence. Offense and defense picked up as well.
That's why you hadn't seen it. That offense is why basketball fans and those of us that knew we had talent were not happy.

Now, if you can stay on point, feel free to discuss. If you want to dramatize it or make up something cute, keep it to yourself.
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I agree, the offense that he was trying to run did not best fit MacRae or Maymon (both Pearl recruits). Since they were important parts of his team, he adjusted what he normally does to better fit his players this year. You do see some motion when you had only Stokes or Maymon on the floor. I think the players he is recruiting better fit his system of play. I guess we will see if Martin continues to be the U.T. coach. I'm sure you think it will be terrible. Also, I'm reading the other thread, and I'm really confused about who is being dramatic.
 
#174
#174
germanicus said:
So, did they not run motion this year?

Richardson and Hubbs should (I hope) get close to replicating Richardson and McRae this year. As for Cornish, he was a 35 pct FG , 27 pct 3 point shot, 51 pct FT shooter in the 20 game EYBL last summer. He'll be more of a slasher than outside shooter.

I won't say "never" on Reese and Moore, but thinking either of them is going to step up and be a good three ball shooter is a leap of faith.
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If you remember poor offensive games and where d was affected as well, we walked it up, ran a lot of motion and took a lot of late and bad shots with no offensive flow. The offense zapped our players instincts at times and we wouldve been nit bound had he not tweaked it.Jrich got 2 shots off in 2-3 early losses. In our late season streak, he avgd close to 10 shots. People will argue it's the same offense but it's not. Not to the eye and not on the stat sheet. We started as a grind it out team when many thought we had horses to run and attack. Grinding didn't work. Attacking with 20 seconds on shot clock did.
We finally did, started scoring close to 80 and blew everybody out.
 
#175
#175
Spartacavolus said:
Martin stopped running his offense, which is one of the biggest reasons we went on a run and avgd @ 78 pts during those wins. He stopped holding players back and they attacked early, rather than wasted motion offense 35 feet out. We had one loss with 7 turnovers made while not making a move to the basket. All from trying to set up set plays. That was his offense and it sucked. When he went away from it, guys played without a leash and gained rhythm and confidence. Offense and defense picked up as well.
That's why you hadn't seen it. That offense is why basketball fans and those of us that knew we had talent were not happy.

Now, if you can stay on point, feel free to discuss. If you want to dramatize it or make up something cute, keep it to yourself.
Click to expand...


Martin ran the same offense against Michigan the other night as he did game one of the year. I think I saw one or two new sets against Michigan that I hadn't seen them run before.

The reason for the run was they were more intense on defense and played as a team. Richardson and Barton making shots were huge down the stretch.

You do need some catch and shoot players to run the motion offense well and I think that's what we are missing. If we had a loften ( I know that's asking a lot) we would still be playing and might win it all.
 
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