Martin has EARNED an extension and a raise

#351
#351
walkenvol said:
Anderson and Grant are overpaid. CCM should get in the $1.6-2.0 range. Hart shouldn't get carried away with one NCAA tourney although as icing on top of the Conzo cake the run should be enough to validate an extension/raise. He should evaluate CCM's entire body of work and make a fair market offer.
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Unfortunately, his fair market value is going up by the minute, and I'd guess anything less than making him the 4th or 5th highest paid coach in a conference he hasn't finished lower than 4th or 5th in, will feel like a slap in the face.
 
#352
#352
volfanjustin said:
Busted? You all brought up Pearl not me, I am talking about Martin. I get it these 3 wins completely change your alls opinion of Martin, they don't change my mind he is still what I always thought he was.
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You said you weren't impressed with Martin's wins because he beat teams he "should have beaten".

I brought up Pearl to prove a point, which I'm starting to guess you're acting like you don't get on purpose or you're too stupid to understand. You said you WERE impressed with Pearl's wins to the Sweet 16 in 2010.....even though he did almost the exact same thing Martin has done. He barely bet a team he was 5 spots higher seeded them him, then beat a 14 seed that had upset a 3 seed (sound familiar?). You said you WERE impressed when Pearl did it because "they didn't sneak into the NCAAT".

Which has jack squat to do with comparing the NCAAT wins, and you know it.
 
#353
#353
knoxville's finest said:
NOTE: Performances bonuses are not reflected in these figures.

1.) John Calipari, Kentucky: $4.2 million through 2018-19 *
2.) Billy Donovan, Florida: $3.5 million through 2015-16
3.) Mike Anderson, Arkansas: $2.2 million through 2017-18
4.) Kevin Stallings, Vanderbilt: $2.1 million through ??? **
5.) Anthony Grant, Alabama: $1.9 million through 2018-19 ***
Frank Martin, South Carolina: $1.9 million through 2016-17
7.) Mark Fox, Georgia: $1.7 million through 2015-16
8.) Frank Haith, Missouri: $1.6 million through 2015-16 ****
9.) Tony Barbee, Auburn: $1.5 million through 2016-17
10.) Cuonzo Martin, Tennessee: $1.3 million through 2015-16
Andy Kennedy, Ole Miss: $1.3 million through 2014-15 *****
12.) Johnny Jones, LSU: $1.1 million through 2016-17
13.) Billy Kennedy, Texas A&M: $1.0 million through 2015-16
Rick Ray, Mississippi State: $1.0 million through 2015-16
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Probably wrong to look at SEC salaries since I doubt if Martin would ever leave for another SEC school. Purdue pays Painter $2.33M. Martin's current UT salary would be 11th in the Big 10. Here's the rest of the Big 10 salaries:

1. Tom Izzo, Michigan State $3.72 million (2017)

2. Tom Crean, Indiana $3.16 million (2020)

3. Bo Ryan, Wisconsin $3 million (2017)

4. Thad Matta, Ohio State $2.75 million (2017)

5. Matt Painter, Purdue $2.33 million (2019)

6. Tubby Smith, Minnesota $2.22 million (2017)

7. John Beilein, Michigan $1.87 million (2016)

8. Tim Miles, Nebraska $1.77 million (2019)

9. Fran McCaffery, Iowa $1.61 million (2019)

10. John Groce, Illinois $1.4 million (2017)

11. Bill Carmody, Northwestern $950,000 (n/a)

12. Patrick Chambers, Penn State $900,000 (2016)
 
#356
#356
cncchris33 said:
So now averaging 21 wins/yr is average. And NCAA tournament opponents are mediocre. I love your word play.
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While I am a huge fan of the tournament run and disagree with downplaying it, 20+ wins in the age of nearly 40 games a season is pretty standard. Well over 100 teams won 20+ games this year.
 
#357
#357
Martin is not a 2 million a year coach. With that kind of salary, UT could get a real proven coach. But, I'm not a "what have you done for me today" type person. Martin's salary should not be based on the past three games but his entire three seasons. When discussing money, emotion must be eliminated and only facts considered (three years worth of facts for Martin). Everyone needs to remember all the horrible losses on Martin's record as well as three last victories.
 
#358
#358
MR_VOL said:
Martin is not a 2 million a year coach. With that kind of salary, UT could get a real proven coach. But, I'm not a "what have you done for me today" type person. Martin's salary should not be based on the past three games but his entire three seasons. When discussing money, emotion must be eliminated and only facts considered (three years worth of facts for Martin). Everyone needs to remember all the horrible losses on Martin's record as well as three last victories.
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His salary currently is basically in line with his experience and accomplishments through his first five seasons. After this season he has similar career accomplishments to Anthony Grant and should be paid similarly. 1.7-1.9 million will probably be the range.
 
#359
#359
I think 1.7 or more is too high as I am more in the 1.55 range.

To be honest, I find it difficult and hard to give money (or credit) to a person not of my choosing. If I was over the athlectic department and had to spend upwards of 2 million, I would be in contact with Howland and possibly "Pitino Junior".
 
#360
#360
VolArmy74 said:
While I am a huge fan of the tournament run and disagree with downplaying it, 20+ wins in the age of nearly 40 games a season is pretty standard. Well over 100 teams won 20+ games this year.
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Actually, 90 teams won 20+ games this year, not "well over 100". That is out of 349 Div. 1 teams, or roughly 25.8%. So 1/4 of teams in college basketball are winning 20+ games. If that is average, then we have differing opinions on the definition of 'average'.

I will agree that the 20-win mark isn't what it used to be, but it still generally represents a successful regular season.

And the only way you are playing anywhere close to 40 games in a season is to go deep into your conference and NCAA tournament, which suggests who most likely did well in the regular season. I think Tennessee played 31 regular season games.
 
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#361
#361
MR_VOL said:
Martin is not a 2 million a year coach. With that kind of salary, UT could get a real proven coach. But, I'm not a "what have you done for me today" type person. Martin's salary should not be based on the past three games but his entire three seasons. When discussing money, emotion must be eliminated and only facts considered (three years worth of facts for Martin). Everyone needs to remember all the horrible losses on Martin's record as well as three last victories.
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The problem with that theory, is that someone will pay him that much. His market value is at an all-time high. So, if Hart believes he is the man for the job, he better make him an offer that is competitive with his market value. If he doesn't think he's the man, then make him a low-ball offer, and let him walk.

You have more faith in our AD to go out and spend money on an unproven commodity than I do. And by unproven commodity, I mean unproven at UT. We will only invest in coaches after they have succeeded here, not before, which is precisely why we end up making hires like Buzz Peterson, Bruce Pearl, and Cuonzo Martin to begin with. Butch Jones and Derek Dooley too, for that matter.
 
#362
#362
why give an extension for him doing the job that he agreed to do. let's see what happens next year first. Don't need a repeat of the Mike Hamilton days where we are paying coaches when they no longer work for the Vols.
 
#363
#363
21VOL said:
why give an extension for him doing the job that he agreed to do. let's see what happens next year first. Don't need a repeat of the Mike Hamilton days where we are paying coaches when they no longer work for the Vols.
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It's how the coaching profession works. You don't have to agree with it, but it is what it is.
 
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#364
#364
cncchris33 said:
It's how the coaching profession works. You don't have to agree with it, but it is what it is.
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What's your opinion on what's going to happen to CCM? I get a feeling he doesn't want to stay at TN for that long, and Hart knows this.

Hart didn't give him an extension last year. CCM claims that they haven't been talking. I call BS on that one. Maybe not him directly, but definitely his agent.
 
#365
#365
walkenvol said:
Anderson and Grant are overpaid. CCM should get in the $1.6-2.0 range. Hart shouldn't get carried away with one NCAA tourney although as icing on top of the Conzo cake the run should be enough to validate an extension/raise. He should evaluate CCM's entire body of work and make a fair market offer.
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Fair market is his price compared to his peers. You can argue Anderson and Grant are overpaid, but that's what they're paid. Auburn just went out and paid Pearl more than Tennessee ever paid him, salaries are going up and up.

Hart probably can go 2 different ways, a higher salary to hope he can convince Martin of a smaller buyout. Or a lesser salary, but a higher buyout. Regardless I think you're going to see him get between $1.8-$2.2
 
#366
#366
MR_VOL said:
I think 1.7 or more is too high as I am more in the 1.55 range.

To be honest, I find it difficult and hard to give money (or credit) to a person not of my choosing. If I was over the athlectic department and had to spend upwards of 2 million, I would be in contact with Howland and possibly "Pitino Junior".
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And you wouldn't land either for that price
 
#368
#368
Dougie_D said:
What's your opinion on what's going to happen to CCM? I get a feeling he doesn't want to stay at TN for that long, and Hart knows this.

Hart didn't give him an extension last year. CCM claims that they haven't been talking. I call BS on that one. Maybe not him directly, but definitely his agent.
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You're not gonna give up this theory are you?

“@CuonzoMartin: It's GREAT to be a Tennessee Vol!!! Next stop, Indy! #Sweet16Selfie http://twitter.com/CuonzoMartin/status/447893819443265536/photo/1”
 

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#369
#369
cncchris33 said:
Actually, 90 teams won 20+ games this year, not "well over 100". That is out of 349 Div. 1 teams, or roughly 25.8%. So 1/4 of teams in college basketball are winning 20+ games. If that is average, then we have differing opinions on the definition of 'average'.

I will agree that the 20-win mark isn't what it used to be, but it still generally represents a successful regular season.

And the only way you are playing anywhere close to 40 games in a season is to go deep into your conference and NCAA tournament, which suggests who most likely did well in the regular season. I think Tennessee played 31 regular season games.
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Yes, but you're averaging Tennessee's win total and referencing the 24 wins this year.

As of right now Kenpom shows 120 teams with 20 or more wins. Many teams have played 35+ games so far this season.

I think a hallmark of a truly excellent entire season is under 10 losses these days rather than 20 wins. Illinois sitting at 20-15 right now isn't exactly in the midst of an impressive season.

This is only referencing the "averaged 20 wins" argument btw.
 
#371
#371
Compensate the man accordingly and extend the same. Or all you are doing is handcuffing him in recruiting. It really is not hard to understand. Some are just hardheaded and foolishly naive in their thinking.
 
#372
#372
VolArmy74 said:
Yes, but you're averaging Tennessee's win total and referencing the 24 wins this year.

As of right now Kenpom shows 120 teams with 20 or more wins. Many teams have played 35+ games so far this season.

I think a hallmark of a truly excellent entire season is under 10 losses these days rather than 20 wins. Illinois sitting at 20-15 right now isn't exactly in the midst of an impressive season.

This is only referencing the "averaged 20 wins" argument btw.
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The 120 teams with 20+ wins is counting the postseason too in KenPom's numbers. I used ESPN's RPI rankings list, which only counts regular season wins. 90 or so teams won 20+ games in the regular season. I'll be the first to admit, Tennessee should have won 25, but 20 still puts them roughly in the 75th percentile.

You used the word 'impressive', but the argument involved the OP's use of the word 'average'. You might not call a team that lost 10+ games impressive, but there are few teams who won 20+ games that I would call 'average'.
 
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#373
#373
VolArmy74 said:
Notice the adverb "nearly" before the 40. There are quite a few teams with 35+ games played this season.

Teams can win under 60% of their games and still get 20 wins. That is average at best imo.
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So the "average" team plays 35 games, not counting postseason?

And the "average" teams wins 60% of their games?

Think you need to look up the definition of "average".
 
#374
#374
cncchris33 said:
The 120 teams with 20+ wins is counting the postseason too in KenPom's numbers. I used ESPN's RPI rankings list, which only counts regular season wins. 90 or so teams won 20+ games in the regular season. I'll be the first to admit, Tennessee should have won 25, but 20 still puts them roughly in the 75th percentile.

You used the word 'impressive', but the argument involved the OP's use of the word 'average'. You might not call a team that lost 10+ games impressive, but there are few teams who won 20+ games that I would call 'average'.
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Actually in referencing UT's win totals the last three years you said "19, 20, and 24 wins" but if you are only counting the regular season we had 18, 19, and 20 wins respectively the last three years. An average of 19 wins in the regular season. The 20 this season is fudging it a bit too, due to Tusculum.

In RPI rankings, we finished the regular season at 19-11 and finished the SEC tournament at 20-12. ESPN's RPI that you are using includes the post season conference tournament records but doesn't include games against Div II opponents, thus the difference in 20 win team totals from other sources. 112 teams finished the regular season with 20 wins if you include games against Div II teams.

Personally, I include the entire season to date.


I'll roll out some 20 game winners that to me, are average teams.

Illinois - 20-15

Georgia - 20-14

LSU - 20-14

St John's - 20-13

Utah - 21-12

UTEP - 23-11

Teams like those that weren't even within sniffing distance of the NCAA tournament late this season. They were sitting at or near 20 wins at the end of conference tournaments and weren't even in the next four out, let alone the first 4 out.

Now one can be technical and take the number of games played among all teams, the number of wins and do the math to get the average win total in all of basketball. But that's not what I'm referring to by average team.
 
#375
#375
bleedingTNorange said:
So the "average" team plays 35 games, not counting postseason?

And the "average" teams wins 60% of their games?

Think you need to look up the definition of "average".
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I'm clearly including post-season totals in my count.

If you want to include regular season only, Tennessee averages 19 wins a year under Martin, not 20. But I looked at the total picture.
 
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