You think hiring a proven HC doesn't matter?

[jakez4ut]

There is no absolutes/for sures in my standard ( for example, Gene chizick won a national title then fell off the map. Its rare - going back to probabilities here, but he is an example that it can happen. I wouldn't consider him proven. No continued consistent success ), only probabilities of greater and lesser. And a wise man would choose the greater probability of "good", and avoid the lesser probability of "bad".

that's the proposal?

 

[bigslk]

The SEC, any P5 conference really, isn't the best environment for on-the-job learning when it comes to being a head coach.

I would say it's not the best environment to start your head coaching at a P5 school, but looking at the numbers it would hard not to.
Looking at some numbers...

Within FBS there is 128 schools and within FCS there is 124 schools. So as a whole, division 1 has 152 football programs.
There's 65 P5 schools.

So over a third of the schools are P5 schools.
Hopefully Pruitt will work out and I believe he will....

 

[volsportsfan]

i'm not familiar with your proposed standard.

it just didn't sound like from your post you accounted for any of the reality of our search. like we just looked at Mullen and said "hard pass", and went for Pruitt instead.

It's a standard based on amount of winning ( this is why I think Pruitt has excellent potential, but is less prepared than Mullen. He has been an assistant under winning coaches, being around solid techniques, fundamentals, schemes, talent evaluation, practice structures ) experience as a coach ( ga through head man ), with time as head coach being given more weight than time as an assistant.

I haven't clearly stated my standard, you are correct. It is spread across two threads. But, what just stated is the gist of it.

 

[TGFHeupel16]

Agreed. People see situations where a coach has success in year 1 or 2 and think that should be us but no 2 situations are the same. Should we have high expectations? Absolutely. But we have to give Pruitt some time to meet them.

Most definitely. It’s hard for some to see but we have improved. Our defense is a better defense, and will only get better. JG has actually played a lot better numbers wise.(people still are going to say he’s the problem) I know losing to Florida the way we did can make some people’s common sense fly out of the window rather quick. But other then that what would we expect to be different up to this point, with an elite coach?

 

[volsportsfan]

[VIDEO=]

It's a standard based on amount of winning ( this is why I think Pruitt has excellent potential, but is less prepared than Mullen. He has been an assistant under winning coaches, being around solid techniques, fundamentals, schemes, talent evaluation, practice structures ) experience as a coach ( ga through head man ), with time as head coach being given more weight than time as an assistant.

I haven't clearly stated my standard, you are correct. It is spread across two threads. But, what just stated is the gist of it.

That's a little bit jumbled, wordy. More plainly, it is standard consisting of amount of experience as a coach ( ga through head coach ), amount of winning experience as a coach ( ga through head coach. This one is kind of obvious in that who wants to hire a coach who hasn't been a part of a winning culture? This is why many many coaches are hired from a proven coaches staff/coaching tree. ), with head coach experience being given more weight than assistant experience.

 

[jakez4ut]

[VIDEO=]


That's a little bit jumbled, wordy. More plainly, it is standard consisting of amount of experience as a coach, amount of winning experience as a coach, with head coach experience being given more weight than assistant experience.

the problem with all that is that the "experience pool" is a lot more shallow today than it was 10 years ago.

head coaching turnover rates are over 50% higer today than they were back then and we're not talking about a long time ago.

and as those turnover rates increase, you're seeing the talent pool at the lower levels also shrink. used to be you could find an Urban meyer that had shown really good, steady success at programs like BG and Utah (for 5+ years) and feel pretty confident in how that coach and staff runs a program, and how they acheive success...as a matter of process, not flas in the pan success.


today, coaches at that leve are being picked off by the P5 programs at a much higher rate than they were back then. so the experience level is watered down. you get a guy like Justin Fuente at Memphis, has two good years and boom, he's gone. his replacement, another 2-3 good years ,and he's on someone's short list.

it's harder today to find those guys, and p5 programs are taking more risks than they ever had to before. and the guys that are at good p5 programs, aren't necessarily buying in to the "grass is greener over here"...everyone is making millions of dollars at that level...

it's more about fit, situation and circumstance now than it probably ever has been, and i'm betting you're gonna start seeing some p5 programs excercise more patience as a result. you can't have a carosuel of coaches every couple, three, 4 years, because you're likely replacing the last guy with a guy just like him, from an experience standoint.

 

[butchna]

Since 2000 there has been a total of 11 different coaches win the NCAA title.

Butch Davis. Miami was his first HC job other than a stint as a HS HC. I don't know if you would say he was a proven HC or not given his NFL experience.
Bob Stoops. Oklahoma was his first and only HC job. He did pretty well.
Larry Coker. Miami was his first HC job. Granted they were already loaded with talent. His career did not work out very well overall, but he doea have a winning record.
Jim Tressell. OSU was his second HC job, he had done extremely well at Youngstown St.
Nick Saban. HC at Michigan St prior to winning his first NC at LSU. We know how this story goes.
Mack Brown. Previous HC experience at Tulane and North Carolina before winning the NC at Texas. He did pretty well overall.
Urban Meyer. HC at Bowling Green and Utah before winning his first NC at florida. He had great success at every job. We know how his story goes too.
Les Miles. HC at Okie St before winning his first NC at LSU. He did pretty well, but got complacent.
Gene Chizik. HC at Iowa St before landing at Auburn and winning the NC. Would not have if not for (s)Cam Newton. Probably the worst career of this list other than Larry Coker.
Jimbo Fisher. No previous HC experience before taking over for Bobby Bowden at FSU. He's had a decent career so far.
Dabo Swinney. No previous HC experience, however he had been at Clemson as an assistant for several years before becoming HC. He's done pretty well.

Only Tressell, Saban, and Meyer are what I would call "proven" at the time they were hired at the school they won their first NC at. Stoops and Miles are the best of the coordinators who became first time HC.

My point with all of it is, you don't have to be a proven HC to build a winning program. Maybe Les, Bob and Jimbo rode the coat tails of already established programs, but they did maintain them. Well, until Les and Jimbo got lazy.
[begin pipe dream]
I think the only fair comparison for Pruitt on this list would be Stoops. The years between Switzer and Stoops (88-98) weren't exactly the stuff of legend. It looked more like the stuff of UT the last decade. After Switzer "resigned", OK had 3 HC's before hiring Stoops. OK had hired a brash (albeit proven) head coach in Howard Snellenberger and he did not do them any favors during his tenure. They also hired a couple guys who were really not ready for the task. Bob's predecessor had recruited some good athletes, but failed to develop them or turn those athletes into winners. Sounds like UT huh? Gary Gibbs was our Dooley. A guy who had the job of righting the ship and cleaning up the mess. Snellenberger was our Kiffin and John Blake was our Butch. I would love it if Pruitt had the success Stoops had at OK. We will have to wait and see if it happens.
[/end pipe dream]

Lot of good points. Butch Davis didn’t win a NC as a HC tho.

 

[JohnD13]

Only reason we did not beat UF 4 straight years was Butch Jones. UF just beat LSU.
They are 5 -1 and 3 -1 in the SEC. I guess UF was loaded to begin this year?
Looks like they do not have to wait 4 years to turn it around.
I am not throwing JP under the bus. This is aimed at the UT decision makers.
You get what you pay for and UT is just not willing to do that.

How many times must people explain to people like you that you are wrong. We tried to hire a name coach and got turned down. If they turn down the money nothing you can do. Is it that hard to understand?

 

[MWAVolfan]

This is way overdone...USUALLY by outsiders. I know you’re exaggerating on this number, but to play along...who were the 26 before Pruitt to TURN US DOWN? If you even make lip motions of Schiano, your list is bogus. We never offered Kelly, Patterson, Peterson, Frost or Gruden...so they can’t be categorized as “choices”. The Brohm deal is confusing. If Currie/Davenport had been on the same page, I believe he would have accepted an offer...if there was one. Assuming there was, we were legitimately turned down by Mullen, Brohm, Gundy and Cutcliffe. Doeren’s agent had him booked before the mini-Schiano so he did the smart thing and is now killin it. Leach would’ve paid US to coach here fwiw. But I understand. Four doesn’t sell a narrative like 27 does.

There is literally no way to overdo the description of what UT did in its coaching search. You cant find a single example of it ever happening before. The narative doesnt need a number to work. The narative is that nobody had Pruitt on any want list prior to Fulmer going to talk to him. UT hadn't even considered offering him before Currie was oustered. Hell, we as fans were all ready and willing to talk to Kiffin for God's sake before we wanted UT to talk to Pruitt.

The narrative is that we ended up with Pruitt in almost the same manner as we ended up with Dooley. We had sh!t the bed as a university, embarrassed ourselves nationally and when none of the pretty girls wanted to dance with us, we ended up slow dancing with the janitor's mop. And when you see someone dancing with a mop, it's OK to question their sanity and the quality of their decision making.

Pruitt may end up being a great coach, but that should have no effect on how we view his hiring as the result of a terribly botched process.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

I'd add that CJP is on track to have worst record in the program's history. Instead of getting filled the hole is getting deeper.

 

[peaygolf]

It's only one opinion of many on VN, but the "epic fail" was getting rid of Fulmer in the first place. But that is old news and doesn't matter anymore.

 

[hUTch2002]

the problem with all that is that the "experience pool" is a lot more shallow today than it was 10 years ago.

head coaching turnover rates are over 50% higer today than they were back then and we're not talking about a long time ago.

and as those turnover rates increase, you're seeing the talent pool at the lower levels also shrink. used to be you could find an Urban meyer that had shown really good, steady success at programs like BG and Utah (for 5+ years) and feel pretty confident in how that coach and staff runs a program, and how they acheive success...as a matter of process, not flas in the pan success.


today, coaches at that leve are being picked off by the P5 programs at a much higher rate than they were back then. so the experience level is watered down. you get a guy like Justin Fuente at Memphis, has two good years and boom, he's gone. his replacement, another 2-3 good years ,and he's on someone's short list.

it's harder today to find those guys, and p5 programs are taking more risks than they ever had to before. and the guys that are at good p5 programs, aren't necessarily buying in to the "grass is greener over here"...everyone is making millions of dollars at that level...

it's more about fit, situation and circumstance now than it probably ever has been, and i'm betting you're gonna start seeing some p5 programs excercise more patience as a result. you can't have a carosuel of coaches every couple, three, 4 years, because you're likely replacing the last guy with a guy just like him, from an experience standoint.

I agree with you except the last part. Unfortunately I don’t see t changing because everyone is so afraid of missing out on the next hot coach. Plus, just society in general is all about instant gratification and that’s the people paying to come watch, buying the merchandise, etc. There’s no going back now.

 

[Behr]

I'd add that CJP is on track to have worst record in the program's history. Instead of getting filled the hole is getting deeper.

Excellent addition, you should have done a fyp and enhanced the overall experience for those of us that didn't read his post until after reading your response. Jmo.

 

[hUTch2002]

Lot of good points. Butch Davis didn’t win a NC as a HC tho.

7 of the 11 he listed had never been a HC at a power 5 program. What’s funny is of the 4 that had 3 of them ended up being fired or forced to resign. Saban is the only survivor. And then you see some of the other hot coaches right now like Smart, Herman, and Pederson and all of them are at their first power 5 HC position. So when people say we need a proven HC I dont think they realize there is no such thing outside of a handful and those few are not coming here. The most likely scenario for success is a coordinator or taking a chance on a non-power 5 coach. We’ve failed miserably at the non-P5 coach path so we are trying a coordinator. By the way, our 1998 championship was brought to us by a first time HC who was a former coordinator.

 

[BeardedVol]

How many times must people explain to people like you that you are wrong. We tried to hire a name coach and got turned down. If they turn down the money nothing you can do. Is it that hard to understand?

We didn't "throw money" any coach, we low-balled and bargain shopped with Sexton to our detriment, and Currie got himself fired for botching the entire process beyond imagination

The only coach that we saw any offer numbers about, was Mike Gundy, represented by none other than Jimmy Sexton, who most likely saw an opportunity to get himself a nice bonus, by floating Gundy's willingness to leave for double his Oklahoma State salary. Currie took the bait, Gundy got his raise at OKS, and Sexton got his commission.

Considering what Currie was offering Schiano, which was ~$4.5 million/year, was what Mullen was making at Mississippi State, I doubt we ever gave him a number that he was close to what he was asking for to come to UT. Florida came in and gave him $6 million/year, and he took it.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

Thanks Behr. I'm trying to cut down on quoting posts. Keep the content fresh, y'know.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

Phil walked into a loaded roster with guys and coaches who he'd worked with for years. Some coaches can build a program, some can hold the wheel, and some just suck.

 

[butchna]

There is literally no way to overdo the description of what UT did in its coaching search. You cant find a single example of it ever happening before. The narative doesnt need a number to work. The narative is that nobody had Pruitt on any want list prior to Fulmer going to talk to him. UT hadn't even considered offering him before Currie was oustered. Hell, we as fans were all ready and willing to talk to Kiffin for God's sake before we wanted UT to talk to Pruitt.

The narrative is that we ended up with Pruitt in almost the same manner as we ended up with Dooley. We had sh!t the bed as a university, embarrassed ourselves nationally and when none of the pretty girls wanted to dance with us, we ended up slow dancing with the janitor's mop. And when you see someone dancing with a mop, it's OK to question their sanity and the quality of their decision making.

Pruitt may end up being a great coach, but that should have no effect on how we view his hiring as the result of a terribly botched process.

All that and you didn’t name 26 who turned us down...you exaggerated. There were two coaching searches. Currie’s was a train wreck. Fulmer QUICKLY identified the type of coach he felt suited the program and QUICKLY hired him off a short list. End of the NARRATIVE I give a crap about.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

How much bonus did CJP get to coach Bama in the BCS c-ship? Asking for a friend.

 

[jakez4ut]

I'd add that CJP is on track to have worst record in the program's history. Instead of getting filled the hole is getting deeper.

sometimes you gotta slow down....to go faster.

 

[peaygolf]

sometimes you gotta slow down....to go faster.

just don't stop and get passed by everyone.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

Yeah. Slowing down isn't building equity for someone who walked in the door without any. The only good thing I can say right now about our HFC is that he isn't Greg Schiano. That's it. He needs to win the fanbase over although he seems to think that we're all gonna bow down and kiss the ring as if he was King Saban's prince. There is still a very slim chance to exceed reasonable expectations this year. He needs to do it.

 

[hUTch2002]

We didn't "throw money" any coach, we low-balled and bargain shopped with Sexton to our detriment, and Currie got himself fired for botching the entire process beyond imagination

The only coach that we saw any offer numbers about, was Mike Gundy, represented by none other than Jimmy Sexton, who most likely saw an opportunity to get himself a nice bonus, by floating Gundy's willingness to leave for double his Oklahoma State salary. Currie took the bait, Gundy got his raise at OKS, and Sexton got his commission.

Considering what Currie was offering Schiano, which was ~$4.5 million/year, was what Mullen was making at Mississippi State, I doubt we ever gave him a number that he was close to what he was asking for to come to UT. Florida came in and gave him $6 million/year, and he took it.

Who knows what exactly went down but supposedly Mullen was likely coming here until Mora was out at UCLA which opened the door for Kelly. Again, who knows what’s truth and what’s fiction but to me it looked like Kelly was West Coast all the way. I don’t think he was going to UF no matter what which means Mullen was never coming here. I could be wrong though. And had Mac not been fired at UF I think we would’ve all been waiting for Mullen to bail once UF came calling. He is a good coach and would’ve helped here for sure though. The only HC that intrigued me a little and was a realistic get was the guy we should have gotten when we hired Dooley and that was Mike Leach. I don’t think the UT admin was crazy about him though outside of Hamilton. I can see the old money that supports UT not liking him either. Any man who has success at Texas Tech and Washington State can coach though. And I do not consider Kiffin a proven HC as some do. To me he has actually given more evidence that he is not a good HC, especially at a big program, than evidence he is a good coach.

 

[butchna]

Yeah. Slowing down isn't building equity for someone who walked in the door without any. The only good thing I can say right now about our HFC is that he isn't Greg Schiano. That's it. He needs to win the fanbase over although he seems to think that we're all gonna bow down and kiss the ring as if he was King Saban's prince. There is still a very slim chance to exceed reasonable expectations this year. He needs to do it.

When you say “it seems”, it’s apparent that it’s only you that SEEMS to think that FOR him. He’s a lifelong professional at coaching. He’s always EARNED the accolades he’s received. You’re goofy.

 

[ProudVOLfan]

Yeah. Slowing down isn't building equity for someone who walked in the door without any. The only good thing I can say right now about our HFC is that he isn't Greg Schiano. That's it. He needs to win the fanbase over although he seems to think that we're all gonna bow down and kiss the ring as if he was King Saban's prince. There is still a very slim chance to exceed reasonable expectations this year. He needs to do it.

Other than a few sillies on here, he has the fan base.