Where did life begin? (Merged)

Do you believe we have a creator, aka "God"?


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#52
#52
None of that invalidates or answers the question, "Where did God come from?"

It does indeed invalidate the question. The only valid questions in a search for knowledge are questions that are, at least hypothetically, answerable.

My statement does not assert that God exists and created the universe, it assumed it. There is a big difference. I was not attempting to prove it. My point was that, if we assume that God exists and created the universe, then any question of origins and timelines is utterly irrelevant absent the causality and time inherent to our universe.

Can something outside our universe exist without being created? Dunno. Unknowable. Hence, any question about it is a logically invalid question.

Can an effect happen prior to a cause outside of our universe? Dunno. Unknowable. Hence, any question about it is a logically invalid question.

Have you ever read any Popper? Any questions of this type are non-falsifiable.
 
#53
#53
It does indeed invalidate the question. The only valid questions in a search for knowledge are questions that are, at least hypothetically, answerable.

My statement does not assert that God exists and created the universe, it assumed it. There is a big difference. I was not attempting to prove it. My point was that, if we assume that God exists and created the universe, then any question of origins and timelines is utterly irrelevant absent the causality and time inherent to our universe.

Can something outside our universe exist without being created? Dunno. Unknowable. Hence, any question about it is a logically invalid question.

Can an effect happen prior to a cause outside of our universe? Dunno. Unknowable. Hence, any question about it is a logically invalid question.

Have you ever read any Popper? Any questions of this type are non-falsifiable.


I don't want to seem rude, but your response seems to be a lot of tap-dancing around something. Is there something sinister about asking questions regarding the beginnings of this universe? Are there some questions that we just shouldn't ask?
 
#54
#54
I'm a Christian, but I love seeing the views of others. There is some stuff that science hasn't been able to 100% answer yet. Good views on both sides of this discussion. I don't "know" if God exists, but then again, no one does. I "believe" He exists. I've struggled with the whole concept for a while now, but for me personally, I think He exists. Again, I'm not 100% sure, but it's what I believe. My family was the only family it seemed that didn't go to church every week, so I wouldn't say I'm very religious.

Additionally, I want to give credit to Christians and atheists alike in this thread for maintaining a level-headed discussion. The world would be a much better place if all issues were handled with this much class. Thanks for showing me there are still some good people left! It depresses me when I've come across discussions like this before and I've seen atheists calling Christians a bunch of idiots who believe in a lie and Christians who call atheists a bunch of godless morons damned to a life in Hell. It's poor representation on both sides. Again, much kudos, VN! Keep it going like this!
 
#55
#55
TRUT..who I rarely agree with...said it best once.

science cannot prove how something can come from nothing and appears they never will. due to that I have to believe in a higher power. beyond that who knows.

i believe God put everything in motion. after that, I personally dont care.
 
#56
#56
Sorry. Bad grammar on my part. Should have read "expansion" rather than "explosion".

Are you familiar with the theory of the Big Bang?

Just having fun with you. But either way the question still exists. What was the cause of the expansion? Turns out there is a lot we just Don't know.



(Church post)
 
#58
#58
I struggle with This as well. GOD just is and always has been. I have trouble wrapping my mind around that. It's no different than in science Where the new school of though is energy always has been. The big bang is just the most recipient big bang. The theory goes on to say at some point all will collapse and bag out again.

Apparently with both God and science there was no beginning.

Is there a scriptural basis for that or is it just something you believe?
 
#61
#61
Just having fun with you. But either way the question still exists. What was the cause of the expansion? Turns out there is a lot we just Don't know.



(Church post)

No problem at all, OS13. We're just discussing things.

There is a lot more known in the scientific world now than 25 years ago, or 50 years, or 100 years, etc...

Not so much in the religious world.

This is not me condemning anyone's belief system. Science is not religion and vice versa.

Are you really curious as to science's explanation of expansion, but can't find any material on the subject?
 
#62
#62
Sorry. Bad grammar on my part. Should have read "expansion" rather than "explosion".

Are you familiar with the theory of the Big Bang?

Science gives us both the big bang theory and the theory of inertia.

How is it possible that one doesn't invalidate the other?
 
#63
#63
Revelations 21:6
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End".

Mind boggling scripture. Ive struggled with it my entire life. Ive always wondered, boom, God is created/formed, to God is that always has been.

Energy force, it sounds silly the men in black wall locker.

How many earths are there?

Has Jesus died and resurrected there to?

Is man an evolution like battlestar galactica, our earth will be destroyed and the survivors colonize another planet
 
#64
#64
Mind boggling scripture. Ive struggled with it my entire life. Ive always wondered, boom, God is created/formed, to God is that always has been.

Energy force, it sounds silly the men in black wall locker.

How many earths are there?

Has Jesus died and resurrected there to?

Is man an evolution like battlestar galactica, our earth will be destroyed and the survivors colonize another planet

Interesting. Somehow I find creation from a sovereign deity much more plausible than the the evolution of flesh and conscience as the result of two rocks banging together.
 
#65
#65
Great thread.

There is a third area of debate for seekers and searchers of truth. The Ancient Alien theory has made strides in recent years. They have came a long way since Erich Von Daniken's Chariots Of the Gods. I spend time trying to reconcile all three therioes into one that encompasses the major contentions of each. To rule out the Ancient Alien theory, well after all is said God by definition is an alien his son Jesus is arguably half alien.
 
#66
#66
When it comes down to it, I find it hard to believe we are the only life forms.

Who knows, aliens are from other planets, trying to warn us. God himself says the earth will be consumed by fire, a planet killer asteroid? I mean, the 1908 asteroid blast over siberia was nuclear in terms of power.

To God, are humans an experiment, I mean look at are attributes for hope and compassion and our capacity to destroy.

I just dont know.

I have to/want to believe God finds Darwin, Newton, scientists etc compelling/amazing.

I would be proud of my child.
 
#67
#67
Is there a scriptural basis for that or is it just something you believe?

Both. I believe you take scripture as a whole not just one verse to for a belief system. But we are on a message board and someone already quoted Rev. so I will go with John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not understood it.
 
#68
#68
No problem at all, OS13. We're just discussing things.

There is a lot more known in the scientific world now than 25 years ago, or 50 years, or 100 years, etc...

Not so much in the religious world.

This is not me condemning anyone's belief system. Science is not religion and vice versa.

Are you really curious as to science's explanation of expansion, but can't find any material on the subject?

Not so much "expansion" as life.

(Warning The views about to be expressed by OS13 are usually considered wack and often get him in trouble with both Christians and scientist alike.)

To properly understand the question I must first state what I believe.
I believe that God is who he claims to be.
I believe that he chose to reveal himself threw scripture.
I believe that Religion and science do not have to be separated. in fact God created science so God is science.
I believe that when God and science disagree there are two reasons to explain the discrepancy. 1) improper reading of the scripture. (ex. age of the earth) 2) Science has yet to figure out how God did it. (ex. Today's topic)
I believe that it is up to every person to decide for themselves about God.
I believe that others should be respected in their beliefs. Without respect it is impossible to learn about yourself.


My question that started this thread from my point of view should have been " How did God flip the switch that started life?" out of respect for everyone I thought it would be better to ask how life began from a science point of view.
 
#69
#69
I've been called all kinds of names on this board for holding these views. Ignorant being the most common. I can't help but notice none of those people have weighed in on this topic.
 
#70
#70
Not so much "expansion" as life.

(Warning The views about to be expressed by OS13 are usually considered wack and often get him in trouble with both Christians and scientist alike.)

To properly understand the question I must first state what I believe.
I believe that God is who he claims to be.
I believe that he chose to reveal himself threw scripture.
I believe that Religion and science do not have to be separated. in fact God created science so God is science.
I believe that when God and science disagree there are two reasons to explain the discrepancy. 1) improper reading of the scripture. (ex. age of the earth) 2) Science has yet to figure out how God did it. (ex. Today's topic)
I believe that it is up to every person to decide for themselves about God.
I believe that others should be respected in their beliefs. Without respect it is impossible to learn about yourself.


My question that started this thread from my point of view should have been " How did God flip the switch that started life?" out of respect for everyone I thought it would be better to ask how life began from a science point of view.

Haha I like the warning...
And that's actually a quite interesting thought process.
 
#71
#71
I don't want to seem rude, but your response seems to be a lot of tap-dancing around something. Is there something sinister about asking questions regarding the beginnings of this universe? Are there some questions that we just shouldn't ask?

I don't understand your response. I am talking about epistemology and the unanswerable questions. I love talking about ideas like the beginning of our universe. However, any questions about things that predate our universe are unanswerable.

Many times, we will use ideas of causality to show the logical necessity for an outside force, let's call it God for short, to have created the universe and set it in motion. This is valid reasoning since nothing that exists or happens in our universe can exist or happen without a cause. The problem comes when someone, who usually wants to poke holes in this idea, wants to then say 'where did God come from' or 'who created God' and smugly think they have proven something. They haven't. The laws of causality that form basis of the arguments for the existence of God cannot be used outside/prior to our universe. This is not a valid question. No matter if you support the idea of God or not, the question is unanswerable and no amount of logic can ever give a semblance of an answer. It is not evil or sinister to ask the question. It is pointless.

If a person wants to use logic based on the laws of this universe to prove that God doesn't exist, then I welcome hearing this idea. I love new ideas, even if I don't always agree with them. If someone can demonstrate to me that their ideas are better than mine, then I will switch my ideas. However, if one insists on using the laws of this universe as if they somehow hold true outside of this universe and then base an argument on that, then I will reject it as the baseless, unfalsifiable argument that it is.
 
#73
#73
Ive always found this to be an odd trait of the board

It's most likely because they read some of my zone post. If That's the case they would think we hate each other. It would come as a shock to them that you are among my favorite posters.
 
#74
#74
Not so much "expansion" as life.

(Warning The views about to be expressed by OS13 are usually considered wack and often get him in trouble with both Christians and scientist alike.)

To properly understand the question I must first state what I believe.
I believe that God is who he claims to be.
I believe that he chose to reveal himself threw scripture.
I believe that Religion and science do not have to be separated. in fact God created science so God is science.
I believe that when God and science disagree there are two reasons to explain the discrepancy. 1) improper reading of the scripture. (ex. age of the earth) 2) Science has yet to figure out how God did it. (ex. Today's topic)
I believe that it is up to every person to decide for themselves about God.
I believe that others should be respected in their beliefs. Without respect it is impossible to learn about yourself.


My question that started this thread from my point of view should have been " How did God flip the switch that started life?" out of respect for everyone I thought it would be better to ask how life began from a science point of view.

I don't see anything wacky enough to merit ridicule. I have some personal theological nit-picks but your thoughts are largely logical.

If you are a believer, why get to wrapped up in how "God flipped the switch"? Take what he gave us in scripture and chalk the rest up to the mysteries of God.
 
#75
#75
Here's my take.

There is one of two options, either the beginning of everything was supernatural, or it wasn't. If it was natural, there is a plethora of options, both current theories and theories we don't even no about yet that could fit in nicely. Likewise, if it was supernatural, there is a also a plethora of options it could be, any accepted God being one, or some other option we don't know about.

I think it is a disservice to this debate to say it was either God or it wasn't. It is like saying if not A, then B. Oh really? Why? What about C, D, E, and F we may not know about?

In the abcense of other mitigating factors, I side on the natural side. This is for 3 reasons.

1. The history of the supernatural (religious) side is embarassing. It is littered with instances of outright false claims that had no way to be verified at the time they were made and were later shown to be conclusively wrong. This is different from the natural (scientific) side because, unlike the supernatural side, they were never claimed to be absolute truth. Only best guesses based on the evidence available at the time drove the thought process. There are still young earth creationist and intelligent design people out there that flat refuse to look at the evidence which is all but common sense in the 21st century.

2. If the debate starts out "how is something created from nothing", then until the origin of the starting point is defined the supernatural side has no legs to stand on. Simply defining a being as "supernatural" and eternal, outside of time, etc is just as arbitrary as saying the universe (or any other starting point) is supernatural. We can see the universe, yes, but we certainly don't understand it. One could easily argue it is just as supernatural.

3. The foundational rules of the debate are flawed from the beginning, suggesting a supernatural force or being has to be a logical option. Why? Who says there is a beginning or end? Who says we fully understand every property of matter, or time? How do we know time as we know it exists? How do we know matter isn't being created from "nothing" as we speak and is actually a common occurance in our reality? For that matter, how do we even know we even physically exist?



...In summary, too many unknowns and there are issues with both sides at the moment. To presume we even have all information at the moment for the debate to even be relevant is erroneous. There could be some new piece of evidence out there still that would refute the supernatural or natural side from even being in the conversation.

But like I said, on balance, if I had to choose I'm going with the natural side until further notice. And I see zero reason to believe it is any one of the accepted Gods in society at this particular point in history.
 

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