Trump says US will institute tariffs on steel and aluminum imports next week

#51
#51
allvol123 said:
Is that why foreign automakers keep opening new plants in the south? Morning Joe sounds like a moron.
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Lib Joe told me that manufacturing holds no place in future American prosperity. So no manufacturing requires no need for said commodity, hence the 25% tariff is irrelevant.
 
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#53
#53
MG1968 said:
So, trade protectionism is bad when China does it, but good when Trump does it?
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No, you are correct. We should spread our legs and talk free trade while our biggest trading partner cherry picks their side. Not to mention the currency control which gives them a huge advantage in all industries. Thats fair trade I guess?
 
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#54
#54
Vol737 said:
Small buying opportunity today but I haven't done much. Financial advisor that handles some stuff for me just got back from a big conference. General outlook is that big money in NY expects a rough ride through the remainder of this year with more selloffs like the one a couple of weeks ago. They believe each one will present a nice buying opportunity and it will level back out.
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Lawdy. Sell. Sell mucho. Market is ahead of itself and interest rates rising. If Trump gets zapped by Mueller, the market tanks bigly.
 
#55
#55
OuterBanksVol said:
Lawdy. Sell. Sell mucho. Market is ahead of itself and interest rates rising. If Trump gets zapped by Mueller, the market tanks bigly.
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Lol. You're seriously making real-life investment decisions on "Trump getting zapped by Mueller"? Oh my..
 
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#57
#57
n_huffhines said:
If you buy anything with steel in it, your costs go up. If your customers buy anything with steel in it, they have less disposable income for Blizzards.

What's your point?
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Ok let’s play the game. No more tariffs.

China uses its state resources to subsidize production of steel, as well as protecting production that violates both environmental and human rights regulations. They flood the market and drastically lower prices below market. Our response is shrug, tariffs are wrong. You throw a party because your new pizza cutter costs $.15 less. Other manufacturers cannot compete strictly on a free market principle, and without their own goverment help they fail. China now corners the market and charges whatever they want.

So how is that a net positive? What are you willing to give up to achieve the lowest price?
 
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#58
#58
n_huffhines said:
Unreal. Enjoy the consequences, idiots.
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As an economist, I'm sure you know the story of national baking companies using profitable operations in other regions to undersell and put local competitors out of business - then raising prices once they have that market under control. That's no different from what China is doing to our industries; once our producers are completely dead and gone China can charge what they want. The cost of metals can increase now to offset Chinese subsidies or later when the Chinese have a market stranglehold. Do you take the medicine early on when you can fight the disease or later when there's no recourse?

Government and unions played a big part in the mess. The unions acted in an monopolistic manner - one union spanning multiple companies (and often industries) wielded unfair and highly unequal power. The government was unwilling to apply anti-monopolistic policies to the unions like they would have applied to companies banding together to fight union power; in fact, a union was always fully able to strike or otherwise support another striking union (teamsters supporting steelworkers, for example).

Increase labor costs and product prices will follow; the Chinese have the way and the will to manipulate labor costs and currency rates that in turn facilitate favorable product prices. Seems like economists had a big role in deciding that floating currencies made sense, so maybe economists aren't the best source for what actually ails world economies.
 
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#59
#59
DancingOutlaw said:
Ok let’s play the game. No more tariffs.

China uses its state resources to subsidize production of steel, as well as protecting production that violates both environmental and human rights regulations. They flood the market and drastically lower prices below market. Our response is shrug, tariffs are wrong. You throw a party because your new pizza cutter costs $.15 less. Other manufacturers cannot compete strictly on a free market principle, and without their own goverment help they fail. China now corners the market and charges whatever they want.

So how is that a net positive? What are you willing to give up to achieve the lowest price?
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This isn't even a realistic scenario, but I'll entertain it. Once China has cornered the market and tries to raise prices, we pay them in the short run and ramp up production. Why pay more now and for the long term instead of paying more in the future for the short term? It makes absolutely no sense.

And it's not a realistic scenario because we don't even produce 5% of the world's steel and China produces 50%. How is China squeezing us out going to create a cornered market for them?

List of countries by steel production - Wikipedia
 
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#60
#60
AM64 said:
As an economist, I'm sure you know the story of national baking companies using profitable operations in other regions to undersell and put local competitors out of business - then raising prices once they have that market under control. That's no different from what China is doing to our industries; once our producers are completely dead and gone China can charge what they want. The cost of metals can increase now to offset Chinese subsidies or later when the Chinese have a market stranglehold. Do you take the medicine early on when you can fight the disease or later when there's no recourse?

Government and unions played a big part in the mess. The unions acted in an monopolistic manner - one union spanning multiple companies (and often industries) wielded unfair and highly unequal power. The government was unwilling to apply anti-monopolistic policies to the unions like they would have applied to companies banding together to fight union power; in fact, a union was always fully able to strike or otherwise support another striking union (teamsters supporting steelworkers, for example).

Increase labor costs and product prices will follow; the Chinese have the way and the will to manipulate labor costs and currency rates that in turn facilitate favorable product prices. Seems like economists had a big role in deciding that floating currencies made sense, so maybe economists aren't the best source for what actually ails world economies.
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Chinese people are very happy and prospering from our stupidity. New airports, new planes, new 400mph trains everywhere, everyone is employed wages are up and their standard of living is increasing. This is why they have chosen to keep the current leader for life.
 
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#61
#61
IPleadInsanity said:
Chinese people are very happy and prospering from our stupidity. New airports, new planes, new 400mph trains everywhere, everyone is employed wages are up and their standard of living is increasing. This is why they have chosen to keep the current leader for life.
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"You should go live there"
 
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#62
#62
n_huffhines said:
This isn't even a realistic scenario, but I'll entertain it. Once China has cornered the market and tries to raise prices, we pay them in the short run and ramp up production. Why pay more now and for the long term instead of paying more in the future for the short term? It makes absolutely no sense.

And it's not a realistic scenario because we don't even produce 5% of the world's steel and China produces 50%. How is China squeezing us out going to create a cornered market for them?

List of countries by steel production - Wikipedia
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That's an unrealistic outlook. Once an industry is dead because there is no economic sense in trying to keep a steel mill that won't pay its costs in production then the mill is no longer viable - you don't just ramp it back up. Once the workers are out of a job and the skills are lost you don't just put unskilled labor to work. Once vocational schools are dead because there's little need for graduates and we've gone to "college for all", you don't have a labor pool for industry.

Some things just aren't like turning a faucet or flipping a switch. I come from the nuclear power industry, and I guarantee you that we look at electric power from two completely different angles. You from it's there when you plug in or flip a switch, and me from a very different perspective on what it takes to get the power to your outlet or switch, and I can guarantee you that one perspective is far simpler than the other.
 
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#63
#63
DancingOutlaw said:
You run a Dairy Queen. What material impact does a steel tariff have on you?
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Construction of subsequent Dairy Queen stores as a franchise owner? Maybe DQ corporate builds the store, but the increase costs could materially change the franchising agreement from unit to unit affecting the franchise owner.
 
#64
#64
AM64 said:
That's an unrealistic outlook. Once an industry is dead because there is no economic sense in trying to keep a steel mill that won't pay its costs in production then the mill is no longer viable - you don't just ramp it back up. Once the workers are out of a job and the skills are lost you don't just put unskilled labor to work. Once vocational schools are dead because there's little need for graduates and we've gone to "college for all", you don't have a labor pool for industry.

Some things just aren't like turning a faucet or flipping a switch. I come from the nuclear power industry, and I guarantee you that we look at electric power from two completely different angles. You from it's there when you plug in or flip a switch, and me from a very different perspective on what it takes to get the power to your outlet or switch, and I can guarantee you that one perspective is far simpler than the other.
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Yeah, once we close our doors, we'll forever be unable to produce steel again. Give me a ****ing break.

Do you honestly believe that our steel production would ever be 0? Why can't we just get by with subsidies?
 
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#65
#65
I would guess that the 25% steel, 10% aluminum tariffs are Trump's high, hard one aimed at the chin, and a change up will be the next pitch.
 
#68
#68
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, once we close our doors, we'll forever be unable to produce steel again. Give me a ****ing break.

Do you honestly believe that our steel production would ever be 0? Why can't we just get by with subsidies?
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That's like the other numbers that never quite work out - like automation of plants. The claim that jobs get better - except there aren't enough of them because if it were a one to one exchange on jobs with the new ones paying more (based on technological need) how could you justify the capital cost of the machines.

Then, too, machines don't take a paycheck home to fuel the economy. So how does a decreasing workforce play out in an expanding population? Subsidize fictitious jobs ... like participation trophies?
 
#69
#69
Who will now pay for the retaliatory action spurred by other countries? Farmers. Who now has higher prices in the US for steel and aluminum? Auto and beer manufacturers. Who ultimately is harmed here? American consumers.

But steel makers must be in trouble right? Nope. Nucor posted over a $1B profit last year.

The move must be designed to protect critical strategic industries then? Nope. It affects Canada which is part of the US defense industrial base.

Nope. All of this can only be chalked up to Trumps delusional, half baked, "America First" policies akin to trying to revive the coal industry. Not sure if he's pandering for WV and PA votes, but i have zero doubt that his economic advisors have told him that this will ultimately have a negative net economic effect.

This is simple, Econ 101 stuff here guys. Trump has proven to me that he is truly ignorant. Complete, unfettered stupidity. If you believe in traditional Republican ideals of free trade like me, you are cringing right now. Protectionism doesnt work. It's that simple.

Please, Mueller. Finish up your work and this idiot impeached already.
 
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