Trade with China has cost 3,200,000 American jobs

#76
#76
IPleadInsanity said:
Sorry, misunderstood.

I think more than 3 million jobs were lost. Entire industries have vanished. They were originally exported to Mexico under NAFTA, which would have solved the current problem of illegal immigration, but the country was not ready. Once NAFTA failed they then moved factories to China. The failure of NAFTA is the real problem.
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No it was my mistake lol.....I mistook your post for one of Huff's.....my bad
 
#77
#77
IPleadInsanity said:
You run your mouth pretty good but thats about all I get from your post.

I ran a factory in China for 12 years, have a residence there and still operate an export business. What do you do to qualify your statement?
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I have a customer that's a plastics mfg business. They told me the company they buy their raw materials from sells the same products to the Chinese at 60% of what they charge in the US. Do you see a lot if this kind of thing with your export business?
 
#78
#78
Carl Pickens said:
I have a customer that's a plastics mfg business. They told me the company they buy their raw materials from sells the same products to the Chinese at 60% of what they charge in the US. Do you see a lot if this kind of thing with your export business?
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Its more complicated than that. A company that sells to both China and USA will probably produce 2 different products at different quality levels. The domestic Chinese markets only want the cheapest materials possible because they must sell at lower prices. The consumers accept whatever they get and its buyer beware on most products, no returns. This is changing a little in the major cities as a small middle class develops with greater quality demands. Our company makes products to USA standards in China for sale to US companies manufacturing in China. Our price was double the best Chinese product available. Some Chinese products can be used to save cost but not every product. Price must always be compared with quality.
 
#79
#79
Another slant on this is the export of basic manufacturing was done to dump pollutant emissions on China. The US waits until lower emissions technology is viable (they were not in the 90s and they're barely viable now but they're far closer than they were 15 years ago) then it brings those industries back stateside.

This is actually a pretty well known issue with established economies that were also industrial age powers. Their entire manufacturing/power generation base is in finite and high-emissions sources. The transition to more economically viable and sustainable sources is difficult because that requires a total reinvestment which is a hard sell on industries.

This way we get a gold star for reducing emissions and can incentivize corporate adoption of sustainable technologies. When automated manufacturing in cleaner environments is possible, that will end up with cheap manufacturing all the same.
 
#80
#80
agent|orange said:
Another slant on this is the export of basic manufacturing was done to dump pollutant emissions on China. The US waits until lower emissions technology is viable (they were not in the 90s and they're barely viable now but they're far closer than they were 15 years ago) then it brings those industries back stateside.

This is actually a pretty well known issue with established economies that were also industrial age powers. Their entire manufacturing/power generation base is in finite and high-emissions sources. The transition to more economically viable and sustainable sources is difficult because that requires a total reinvestment which is a hard sell on industries.

This way we get a gold star for reducing emissions and can incentivize corporate adoption of sustainable technologies. When automated manufacturing in cleaner environments is possible, that will end up with cheap manufacturing all the same.
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Not sure if you're serious. I think companies in part jumped ship due to environmental bureaucracy. Not sure why you think they will pay even more now when they wouldn't then. Anything that's gonna lower emissions is gonna cost more especially here but it's not about emissions it's about cost and China doesn't care about emissions and cost will always be cheaper there. Here you have higher cost labor, health care, pensions, and all the government bureaucracy......it's a no brainer.
 
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#81
#81
govols/cc said:
Not sure if you're serious. I think companies in part jumped ship due to environmental bureaucracy. Not sure why you think they will pay even more now when they wouldn't then. Anything that's gonna lower emissions is gonna cost more especially here but it's not about emissions it's about cost and China doesn't care about emissions and cost will always be cheaper there. Here you have higher cost labor, health care, pensions, and all the government bureaucracy......it's a no brainer.
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China is actually one of the largest investors in renewable energy. If we let them get to be king, they'll dominate that market.

It's in our best interest, globally, to back investment of renewable technology. Selling hydro, wind, solar, geothermal, etc will be a big big big industry in the next couple of decades as nations try to wean off finite resources that many of them don't have to begin with.

If we want to shackle ourselves to coal/oil it'll be our eventual undoing as most nations move away from that and buy Chinese/European solutions. The levelized cost of renewables compared to traditional is actually pretty competitive. Not to mention renewables aren't centered around a volatile and finite resource.
 
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#82
#82
agent|orange said:
China is actually one of the largest investors in renewable energy. If we let them get to be king, they'll dominate that market.

It's in our best interest, globally, to back investment of renewable technology. Selling hydro, wind, solar, geothermal, etc will be a big big big industry in the next couple of decades as nations try to wean off finite resources that many of them don't have to begin with.

If we want to shackle ourselves to coal/oil it'll be our eventual undoing as most nations move away from that and buy Chinese/European solutions. The levelized cost of renewables compared to traditional is actually pretty competitive. Not to mention renewables aren't centered around a volatile and finite resource.
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OK. Well now everything you said before makes even less sense. You were talking about jobs coming back to the US due to technology creating lower emissions. There's still nothing you posted that China can't do and won't do for less.
 
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#83
#83
You are 1 step behind regarding US jobs lost to China. Those jobs began moving out of China 3 years ago as worker salaries have almost tripled. The Chinese government does not want to be a cheap exporting nation. They want to emulate Japans rise in the world economy. Most of the US industries have moved to Bangladesh, Vietnam, Indonesia and India. Only the high tech industries remain but they will also flee when workers are available elsewhere. I would guess 40% of companies that were exporting to the world went out of business, moved to another country or converted their products for domestic Chinese consumption. The jobs will not be coming back to the USA.
 
#84
#84
IPleadInsanity said:
You are 1 step behind regarding US jobs lost to China. Those jobs began moving out of China 3 years ago as worker salaries have almost tripled. The Chinese government does not want to be a cheap exporting nation. They want to emulate Japans rise in the world economy. Most of the US industries have moved to Bangladesh, Vietnam, Indonesia and India. Only the high tech industries remain but they will also flee when workers are available elsewhere. I would guess 40% of companies that were exporting to the world went out of business, moved to another country or converted their products for domestic Chinese consumption. The jobs will not be coming back to the USA.
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Then why would Intel and GlobalFoundaries build all of their most recent fabrication facilities in the US?

I'd be interested to know what you know that the powers behind 2 of the world leaders in their field (semiconductors and silicon wafers) don't know.
 
#85
#85
IPleadInsanity said:
You are 1 step behind regarding US jobs lost to China. Those jobs began moving out of China 3 years ago as worker salaries have almost tripled.
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Also, this would have nothing (at all) to do with repeated theft of technology by the Chinese?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/business/economy/12leonhardt.html?_r=0

Yeah, that had nothing to do with it.

Nothing at all.

BBC News - German firms fear China technology theft

Oddly enough, that started getting out 3 years ago.
 
#86
#86
agent|orange said:
Also, this would have nothing (at all) to do with repeated theft of technology by the Chinese?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/business/economy/12leonhardt.html?_r=0

Yeah, that had nothing to do with it.

Nothing at all.

BBC News - German firms fear China technology theft

Oddly enough, that started getting out 3 years ago.
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They have very strict copyright laws that are strictly enforced by the government. The first preamble clearly states "COPY is our RIGHT"!:eek:lol:
 
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#91
#91
Vol8188 said:
So we shouldn't use taxpayer money for research and development?
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you complain about crony capitalism, but ignore it when Obama throws billions at "green energy" startups that go bankrupt once the funding runs out.
 
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#92
#92
MG1968 said:
you complain about crony capitalism, but ignore it when Obama throws billions at "green energy" startups that go bankrupt once the funding runs out.
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When did I make that complaint?

And once again: new technology is always risky. Research and development is important to our nation. Without government grants we wouldn't half the technology we have today. Finding alternative energy resources is also extremely important to the future of our nation.

So I have no problem at all with this.
 
#93
#93
Carl Pickens said:
Looks like renewable energy isn't doing so well in the US......this looks like another Solyndra

Hemlock closing Clarksville plant permanently
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The US (well, US market for PV modules) had nothing to do with that:

Hemlock Semiconductor Group announced today it will lay off approximately 400 employees in Michigan and Tennessee in the coming weeks in response to significant oversupply in the polysilicon industry and the threat of potential tariffs on its products sold into China.

"The unresolved trade disputes among the U.S., China and Europe are a major factor in Hemlock Semiconductor's actions as the threat of tariffs on U.S. polysilicon imported into China has significantly decreased orders from China, which is home to one of the largest markets for our products"
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Hemlock and Clarksville took a big gamble that the Chinese market would be open to American exports and it bottomed out. From here:

Hemlock Semiconductor announces layoffs, reduces production as a result of industry oversupply, international trade disputes - Hemlock Semiconductor

So don't say "renewables" when you mean "a very specific and somewhat over-saturated market for one type of renewable energy modules".
 
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#94
#94
Additionally, the renewable market is profitable:

The group helped launch solar and geothermal projects capable of powering more than 65,000 homes and notched after-tax profits of $27 million in 2013. In January, though, employees were told that funding had dried up and were urged to look elsewhere for work.
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From here: Chevron Backpedals Again on Renewable Energy - Businessweek

They're just not profitable enough when you're making billions off of fossil fuels. The point is, there is a market for them. Investment funds are moving away from fossil fuels Rockefeller Fund Built on Oil to Abandon Fossil Fuels - Bloomberg and companies that don't evolve are signing their own death sentence.

I'm definitely a smaller federal government guy but I do believe that incentivizing the adoption of and adaptation to what is clearly the future of energy generation (wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, biofuels) and lessening the deathgrip the enormous oil companies have on the market is something that the government should emphasize.

They're not punishing the oil companies, they're incentizing them and allowing smaller companies the ability to breathe. Otherwise the oil companies will tie the US to a market we have no hope of generating much off of overseas and will stall domestic progress towards R&D of products that can have overseas markets.

Now, with that said, obviously this must be tempered. The collapse of the Hemlock plant shows why. Don't tie yourself to the prospect of a market that isn't there due to government trade negotiations failures, etc etc etc.

South America is a potentially lucrative emerging market. So are parts of Africa.
 
#95
#95
FLVOL_79 said:
To get your cheap dollar store/walmart/ikea crap you have to have slave type labor costs. Thats why the US manufacturing economy is becoming a service economy. You can blame regulation and rights and all that for those jobs going away.

Chinese factory workers get about $1.50 an HOUR on average......US guys make about $25 on average...
0308factoryworkers.gif

And wowzerLols at the chance of dying at work in China..good lawd!

And for some fun:
CNN Global Wage Calculator - CNN.com

Im worth 50 teachers in Ethiopia!!
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Let's see a chart comparison of the taxes paid.
 
#97
#97
FLVOL_79 said:
But...it is. We all make decisions in life and must live with the consequences.

HOWEVER..having tons of money doesnt make you rich or better off than other people. I got 3 couples here at work pulling a metric Asston of cash..all of them broke, miserable, hate their lives. They all wonder how I have a nicer car, house, go on trips, etc, making less than them.

Make smart decisions :good!:

Sadly for many people listening to their parents during their high school years doesnt happen and only years later do you realize "Damn, Mom and Dad were right! I should have studied more and strived for better grades!". Well, back to sucking sh!t outta portapotties! :whistling:

And I don't have a huge alcohol/drug problem so I save some $ there.
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You forgot to add that debt is slavery. Spot on otherwise...
 
#99
#99
VolsNSkinsFan said:
We lost skilled labor? How does Boeing continue to build planes?
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Boeing needs to get their act together. As an it's a Boeing or I'm not going kind of guy (I fly 757s)... if Boeing doesn't get their price structure in line with their competition, they are gonna have trouble selling those airplanes..
 
#100
#100
agent|orange said:
The US (well, US market for PV modules) had nothing to do with that:



Hemlock and Clarksville took a big gamble that the Chinese market would be open to American exports and it bottomed out. From here:

Hemlock Semiconductor announces layoffs, reduces production as a result of industry oversupply, international trade disputes - Hemlock Semiconductor

So don't say "renewables" when you mean "a very specific and somewhat over-saturated market for one type of renewable energy modules".
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The Chinese are beating our asses on solar. Is that better?
 
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