The Problem of Whiteness

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

With each post you prove how little knowledge you have.

Oh really? ***checks last 2 posts*** k:

Asian Americans make less than whites (of the same educational attainment) = FACT

Reparations have already been paid out multiple times by the US government = FACT

Reparations were intended to be paid to slaves by the US government = FACT


I guess facts don't matter to white supremacists. Every point I have made in this thread is supported by FACTS. Its you guys, those that deny white supremacy exists and minorities (specifically black people) are harmed by it, that are the ones making claims of which you have little knowledge of and for which you have no evidence.

 

[KentheOrange]

True. But that is because they typically have the highest education attainment of any race. So it shouldn't surprise anyone they make more. However, my point is still true. If we control for educational attainment Asian Americans make LESS on than whites. See here: A closer look at Asian-American income | Economic Policy Institute

So, you're saying that if blacks wouldn't drop out of school at a higher rate than any other race they would attain higher income levels.

 

[Burger]

Oh really? ***checks last 2 posts*** k:

Asian Americans make less than whites (of the same educational attainment) = FACT

Reparations have already been paid out multiple times by the US government = FACT

Reparations were intended to be paid to slaves by the US government = FACT


I guess facts don't matter to white supremacists. Every point I have made in this thread is supported by FACTS. Its you guys, those that deny white supremacy exists and minorities (specifically black people) are harmed by it, that are the ones making claims of which you have little knowledge of and for which you have no evidence.

I'm going to quote this one for the sake of space. The reparations for the Native Americans were actually treaties negotiated by the native leaders and the US Government when that government of that time did the bad deeds. Roosevelt's government actually did put the Japanese into interment camps. The US Government ( aka taxpayers because governments don't generate revenue ) of those times paid those reparations when they actually had something to do with it.

I'm asking, why should the 2016 US Government aka 2016 taxpayer ( this includes all races ) pay reparations for something that happened 150 years ago when all the taxpayers weren't alive. Last time I knew, blacks in the US aren't enslaved. Why should the taxpayers that had nothing to do with slavery pay money to people who aren't slaves?

You could end up having a descendent of a slave paying for a person who isn't a slave decendent. Wouldn't that be classic?

 

[joevol33]

Oh really? ***checks last 2 posts*** k:

Asian Americans make less than whites (of the same educational attainment) = FACT

Reparations have already been paid out multiple times by the US government = FACT

Reparations were intended to be paid to slaves by the US government = FACT


I guess facts don't matter to white supremacists. Every point I have made in this thread is supported by FACTS. Its you guys, those that deny white supremacy exists and minorities (specifically black people) are harmed by it, that are the ones making claims of which you have little knowledge of and for which you have no evidence.

You keep crying about white supremacy and racism, yet your posts are the most racist of anybody in here. You automatically call us who are white racist without even knowing a thing about us, just because we're white. Sorry buddy, that's racist and stupid.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So, you're saying that if blacks wouldn't drop out of school at a higher rate than any other race they would attain higher income levels.

No.

What I'm saying is regardless of much education you attain, if you are non-white, you will be paid less than a white person who has the same education level you do. That no matter how much education we get we're still not white which means we'll get paid less.

That is white privilege.

That is white supremacy.

 

[Burger]

No.

What I'm saying is regardless of much education you attain, if you are non-white, you will be paid less than a white person who has the same education level you do. That no matter how much education we get we're still not white which means we'll get paid less.

That is white privilege.

That is white supremacy.

I'd love some of that white privilege.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You keep crying about white supremacy and racism, yet your posts are the most racist of anybody in here. You automatically call us who are white racist without even knowing a thing about us, just because we're white. Sorry buddy, that's racist and stupid.

Interesting.

Once facts get brought up, the subject changes.

No more yapping about I don't know this or that. Now its about whining about being called a racist. First of all, I'm not calling anyone a racist. I'm simply stating facts. If the facts lead you to the conclusion white people are racist then that is on you. I'm only stating the facts about the system of white supremacy that pervades our society and its effect on us. That is all.

 

[Burger]

Interesting.

Once facts get brought up, the subject changes.

No more yapping about I don't know this or that. Now its about whining about being called a racist. First of all, I'm not calling anyone a racist. I'm simply stating facts. If the facts lead you to the conclusion white people are racist then that is on you. I'm only stating the facts about the system of white supremacy that pervades our society and its effect on us. That is all.

Just a curious question for ya, would you be OK with a pure meritocracy?

 

[NEO]

No.

What I'm saying is regardless of much education you attain, if you are non-white, you will be paid less than a white person who has the same education level you do. That no matter how much education we get we're still not white which means we'll get paid less.

That is white privilege.

That is white supremacy.

So what u are saying is Asians make more because they work twice as hard as whites but blacks make less because they are uneducated and lazy?

Asians overcame being placed in camps and white supremacy through hard work but blacks are stuck living on welfare because you can't let the past go nor have the self motivation needed to succeed in this world without a social hand out?

This is what you are basically saying whether u realize it not....sadly.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I'm going to quote this one for the sake of space. The reparations for the Native Americans were actually treaties negotiated by the native leaders and the US Government when that government of that time did the bad deeds. Roosevelt's government actually did put the Japanese into interment camps. The US Government ( aka taxpayers because governments don't generate revenue ) of those times paid those reparations when they actually had something to do with it.

I'm asking, why should the 2016 US Government aka 2016 taxpayer ( this includes all races ) pay reparations for something that happened 150 years ago when all the taxpayers weren't alive. Last time I knew, blacks in the US aren't enslaved. Why should the taxpayers that had nothing to do with slavery pay money to people who aren't slaves?

You could end up having a descendent of a slave paying for a person who isn't a slave decendent. Wouldn't that be classic?

False. It was actually Reagan in 1988 that finally gave reparations to Japanese-Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Liberties_Act_of_1988

So you're wrong about taxpayers at the time paying for anything. It was taxpayers in the late 80s that paid for injustices committed by the US government 40 something years earlier. I'm sure most of the taxpayers in 1988 were not of voting age during WW2 when the internment camps existed (where one could make the argument that voting age adults at that time implicitly approved of the injustices committed by the US government against Japanese-Americans). And for what its worth I don't know why the taxpayers being alive when the incident happened matters. Taxpayers didn't directly commit the incident. It was elected officials that decided mistreating Japanese-Americans was a good idea.

So if the Japanese-Americans can get reparations 40 years after the fact, why can't black people get reparations 150 years later? Why is 40 years your arbitrary cut-off? And don't give me anything about slaves no longer being alive to collect what they are owed. The impact of slavery goes beyond the life of the slave. It has impact the lives of his and her descendants for generations. It is still felt among the descendants of slaves. If the promise of 40 acres and mule had been honored at the time, black people would have had access to generational wealth in terms of land ownership that could have totally changed the destiny of most black peoples lives living today.

Denying the descendants of slaves access to restitution for hundreds of years of free labor is an injustice. If that labor had been compensated to slaves at the time, the reality of life for black people in this country would be radically different. Black people might have actually had wealth they could have passed down to later generations.

 

[Burger]

False. It was actually Reagan in 1988 that finally gave reparations to Japanese-Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Liberties_Act_of_1988

So you're wrong about taxpayers at the time paying for anything. It was taxpayers in the late 80s that paid for injustices committed by the US government 40 something years earlier. I'm sure most of the taxpayers in 1988 were not of voting age during WW2 when the internment camps existed (where one could make the argument that voting age adults at that time implicitly approved of the injustices committed by the US government against Japanese-Americans). And for what its worth I don't know why the taxpayers being alive when the incident happened matters. Taxpayers didn't directly commit the incident. It was elected officials that decided mistreating Japanese-Americans was a good idea.

So if the Japanese-Americans can get reparations 40 years after the fact, why can't black people get reparations 150 years later? Why is 40 years your arbitrary cut-off? And don't give me anything about slaves no longer being alive to collect what they are owed. The impact of slavery goes beyond the life of the slave. It has impact the lives of his and her descendants for generations. It is still felt among the descendants of slaves. If the promise of 40 acres and mule had been honored at the time, black people would have had access to generational wealth in terms of land ownership that could have totally changed the destiny of most black peoples lives living today.

Denying the descendants of slaves access to restitution for hundreds of years of free labor is an injustice. If that labor had been compensated to slaves at the time, the reality of life for black people in this country would be radically different. Black people might have actually had wealth they could have passed down to later generations.

Why should the modern taxpayer pay for the mistakes of over 150 years ago? If the government pays reparations, it comes out of the pockets of blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics, and other races. Why should people who never owned a slave have to pay for people who did? Also, you know there were white slaves called indentured servants. Do we pay those families also?

Also, slaves were compensated with shelter and food.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Just a curious question for ya, would you be OK with a pure meritocracy?

Eventually? Sure. Just not now when one group is so far behind and another group is so far ahead. What you are suggesting is like saying to someone "hey you wanna race to the endzone?" while you are standing at the 50 yards line and the other person in on the opposite goaline. A race should start with both contestants starting from the same spot. And right now because of structural racism and past injustices, black people are not starting from the same point as whites.

The problem with the situation of race in America today is not so much persistent active racism. Its the fact nothing has been done to redress structural racism. Black people were shut out from mainstream American society for hundreds of years. Then all of sudden now after hundreds of years of active racism you wanna say lets do a meritocracy? Are you serious? Its very hypocritical to all of a sudden want merit to matter when it was the last thing that mattered for centuries. For most of this country's history skin color determined your destiny in life more than your ability.

When black people are on equal footing with whites economically and when the historical injustices and structural imbalances of America are corrected then we can talk about the mythical pure meritocracy. Till then all your selling me is a continuation of the status quo of white supremacy.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So what u are saying is Asians make more because they work twice as hard as whites but blacks make less because they are uneducated and lazy?

Asians overcame being placed in camps and white supremacy through hard work but blacks are stuck living on welfare because you can't let the past go nor have the self motivation needed to succeed in this world without a social hand out?

This is what you are basically saying whether u realize it not....sadly.

Reading comprehension must not be one of your strong suits. Read the article I posted again.

Obviously Asians with a college degree will make more than whites without a college degree. The point of that article is when you equalize education and the only difference become race, Asians make less than whites. That is a classic example of white supremacy.

 

[Burger]

Eventually? Sure. Just not now when one group is so far behind and another group is so far ahead. What you are suggesting is like saying to someone "hey you wanna race to the endzone?" while you are standing at the 50 yards line and the other person in on the opposite goaline. A race should start with both contestants starting from the same spot. And right now because of structural racism and past injustices, black people are not starting from the same point as whites.

The problem with the situation of race in America today is not so much persistent active racism. Its the fact nothing has been done to redress structural racism. Black people were shut out from mainstream American society for hundreds of years. Then all of sudden now after hundreds of years of active racism you wanna say lets do a meritocracy? Are you serious? Its very hypocritical to all of a sudden want merit to matter when it was the last thing that mattered for centuries. For most of this country's history skin color determined your destiny in life more than your ability.

When black people are on equal footing with whites economically and when the historical injustices and structural imbalances of America are corrected then we can talk about the mythical pure meritocracy. Till then all your selling me is a continuation of the status quo of white supremacy.

I've always believed in the whole dog eat dog thing. Nobody ever has an equal start. All that matters is where we finish, not where we start. The child of Daymond John is going to have a better start than a child of a white guy in Clayton County Kentucky ( 92% white, poorest county ). Considering affirmative action, a poor black guy has a better start than a poor white guy. Easier college admittance requirements.

I honestly think the only thing keeping the black community "down" is their own cultural values. They don't put as high of a value on education such as other cultures. The only way to get black people on equal footing is a massive culture change.

Nowadays, if you're a black guy and you're smarter, better, and high energy than your white counterparts, you'll move up quicker. It would be a discrimination lawsuit otherwise.

A mertitocracy would possibly be worse for blacks than the current system because Asians, whites, and Hispanics could possibly blow most away.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Why should the modern taxpayer pay for the mistakes of over 150 years ago?

Modern taxpayers should pay for what happened 150 years ago for the same reason taxpayers in 1988 paid for something that happened about 45 years ago. I'm not here to get into an argument over what taxpayers should or should not pay for in a theoretical sense. All I did was present you with evidence of the US government paying reparations to a racial group (Japanese-Americans) for injustices committed against them in the past. If the US government has done it before why not now? Especially when I have cited that there was a deal in place by Lincoln in 1865 to give black people reparations for slavery that Andrew Johnson reneged on after Lincoln was assassinated.

If the government pays reparations, it comes out of the pockets of blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics, and other races. Why should people who never owned a slave have to pay for people who did?

Why did people who had nothing to do with the internment of Japanese-Americans in 1988 have to pay $1.2 billion in reparations? You give me the answer to that question and I'll give you the answer to why people today should pay for reparations for slavery.

Also, you know there were white slaves called indentured servants. Do we pay those families also?

LOL. Seriously? Are you really being serious here? lol:

Indentured servitude is completely different from slavery. That was a bargained for exchange. Poor whites who lived in Europe but wanted to make the voyage to America agreed to deals with American landowners to work for them a number of years in exchange for a trip to America. See here: Indentured Servants in Colonial Virginia

Indentured servants were men and women who signed a contract (also known as an indenture or a covenant) by which they agreed to work for a certain number of years in exchange for transportation to Virginia and, once they arrived, food, clothing, and shelter.

So you see, there is no comparison between coming to America as part of a contractual agreement for which you will be free once you have paid back your debt and FREAKIN' SLAVERY. I seriously can't believe you tried to make that point. Read a book.

Also, slaves were compensated with shelter and food.

First of all, shelter and food is not compensation buddy. Its an accommodation. Learn the difference. And let me guess? You also think pet owners are compensating their pets when they give them shelter and food? LOL. lol:

 

[joevol33]

Interesting.

Once facts get brought up, the subject changes.

No more yapping about I don't know this or that. Now its about whining about being called a racist. First of all, I'm not calling anyone a racist. I'm simply stating facts. If the facts lead you to the conclusion white people are racist then that is on you. I'm only stating the facts about the system of white supremacy that pervades our society and its effect on us. That is all.

The irony in your words right here.

 

[Burger]

45 vs. 150 years is a huge difference. There were people who were alive in world war 2 that survived into the 80s. The Japanese reparations were dumb, but at least some of the people in the internment camps were still alive. There is not one slave from the 1860's that are still living. When hardly anyone actually owned slaves, and the fact that no former slave is still alive makes it where the modern taxpayer is paying for something they had absolutely nothing to do with. It's extremely unfair to the people who's ancestors weren't even here when slavery was around like mine. Especially when there is no black person in this country from the slavery era. Reparations is just a way for people to get free money, especially after 150 years. You never had to operate a cotton gin or pick cotton.

Nobody owes you personally anything. On this planet, nobody is entitled to squat.

We can't afford to pay reparations anyways because of a 20 trillion dollar debt.

I'll give ya the indentured servant thing.

Food and shelter is actually a common form of compensation for people like live in caregivers. Other common deals where food and shelter as compensation is common is with work for rent deals, sports scholarships, and farm work.

Accommodation is the free continental breakfast with your hotel room, or the seat you sit in at Neyland Stadium.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I've always believed in the whole dog eat dog thing. Nobody ever has an equal start. All that matters is where we finish, not where we start. The child of Daymond John is going to have a better start than a child of a white guy in Clayton County Kentucky ( 92% white, poorest county ). Considering affirmative action, a poor black guy has a better start than a poor white guy. Easier college admittance requirements.

I honestly think the only thing keeping the black community "down" is their own cultural values. They don't put as high of a value on education such as other cultures. The only way to get black people on equal footing is a massive culture change.

Nowadays, if you're a black guy and you're smarter, better, and high energy than your white counterparts, you'll move up quicker. It would be a discrimination lawsuit otherwise.

A mertitocracy would possibly be worse for blacks than the current system because Asians, whites, and Hispanics could possibly blow most away.

Thank You. We finally agree on something. I agree 100% with you that poor cultural values and a lack of value for education are the biggest impediments to black people advancing in America today. While structural and historical racism have set us back, we are now holding ourselves back even more through destructive behavior.

Now I ask you, why do you think black people don't value education? Why do you think black people have poor cultural values? You see the answer to these questions is really what separates us. We both see the same problems. I see the problems of our people in terms of lack of motivation in school. Lack of respect and love for one another. And destructive behavior in general. I'm not oblivious to these issues. We just believe there are different causes for these poor cultural values.

You and most white supremacists believe these poor cultural values are the result of black inferiority. You'll deny this I'm sure and claim its simply poor decision making not an inherent quality of inferiority that leads to these poor cultural choices. But the truth is you simply believe we are inferior. Hence your statement at the end of the post above that if we went to a system of pure meritocracy that "Asians, whites, and Hispanics could possibly blow [black people] away."

White supremacists believe that black people are both morally and intellectually inferior to whites. I've heard this viewpoint said in its purest form while perusing white supremacists websites like Stormfront. But I've also heard it strongly implied throughout threads like this one. The most frequent being the current struggles of many African countries. This is usually cited in almost every thread on race in this forum as evidence that blacks regardless of where they are located are incapable of exercising anything other than poor cultural values. In particular, when I mentioned Ancient Egypt being black earlier in this thread, there was a chorus of posters saying no way they were middle-eastern. Not because they had cited any information. But rather that what I said couldn't be true. The implication being that the Ancient Egyptians couldn't possibly be black since they were a great civilization and we all know black people aren't capable of great civilizations. The same thing happened when I mentioned Timbuktu (the African city with a university older than any in Europe) was black, once again the same chorus of posters chimed in and said there was no way it was black but rather it was an Arab city. The implication once again being that black people couldn't obviously have had an institution of higher learning before Europeans. Whenever present day African countries are mentioned their dysfunction is usually cited as evidence that this is simply how black people behave. The basic point of view from white posters on this site I have gathered is the problems facing black people in this country and abroad are almost entirely our fault and in no way a result of any mistreatment towards blacks by whites in the past or present.

There are many black people who agree with this line of thinking that black people are solely to blame for their present situation. They are what are commonly referred to in the black community as "coons". Now those of us that are enlightened black people know better. We've studied history. We know that the idea of black racial inferiority is a myth. We know that the issues that plague the black community both in the present and past is the result of systematic oppression and the perpetuation of WHITE SUPREMACY. White people have brainwashed us into believing their lie. That we are inferior to them. That we are intellectually inferior. That we are morally inferior. Its why our community is so destructive right now. White supremacy has basically become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It was founded on the belief that white people are superior and black people are inferior. And through its perpetuation by mass media we have now come to internalize it and become what they said. Black people don't value education because they have been told they are not smart enough. Black people don't respect for value one another because they have been told they don't matter.

Black people have now become what WHITE SUPREMACY falsely said we always were.

 

[Burger]

Black people don't value education as much because they think the cards are slanted against them. I would say the cultural issue caused by the perceived inferiority. That would include the culture of the slavery era. It does not help that you guys are victimizing yourselves with the thinking that you guys are inferior.

Morally, that has to be judged on an individual basis. The Nazi Regime and Idi Amin are representatives of the worst of either race.

Every single race has trade offs due to genetics. Generally Asians are smart, but aren't going to run a 4.4 40. Humans have small insignificant variations that make a difference. There's a reason most business people are white and most great athletes are black. There's nothing we can do about macroevolution. That doesn't mean black people are dumb, or white people can't jump. But the potentials in different traits are different. Also, Street smarts are a lot different than book smarts. Saying we are all equal is just naive.

I don't think blacks are hitting their fullest potential because of that cultural problem. There is no amount of money or government pandering that is going to fix that. It has to start within their own community.

The actual African history you're talking about. The Songhai were actually Arabian, but the Zulu were African. African history is not my wheelhouse at all.

 

[RikidyBones]

D4h, I see mostly excuses from you. The "why do you think the black community devalues education" question is worthless. Who cares? It's an incorrect assumption in today's world. The reason the Japanese, Jews, Irish and German immigrants aren't in the slums is because they fought AGAINST prejudice with their own core values. They didn't dismiss hard work because of past uncontrollable challenges.

In regards to reparations, you don't get a check because you're black. African American pop is about 46 million. Let's say 1/3 of the population can prove they are descendants which is about 15 million. If 15 million get just a grand, that'd be 15 billion of tax payer money. How's that change your life? 100 grand won't help change your path either. But in case you're curious, that'd be 1.5 trillion dollars that this government doesn't have and will increase our deficit about 37.5%. Yeah... won't happen.

So now let's get into who pays for this. So my money and my family's money, who came from Germany in 1934 is going to help pay for reparations of some that we didn't have a part in? that's fair. It's not just our past money but now a large increase in taxes for the future which YOU WILL PAY FOR TOO lol. Good call. All for a quick, irrelevant buck.

Reparations is an immature/irresponsible solution to a problem none of us have for doing acts that none of us have committed or witnessed on this soil with our own eyes. Move off of reparations. It ain't gonna happen.

The only form I can think of is a tax break for a couple years but it would be a pain in the ass to file. (at least I'd make it that way)

 

[AirVol]

I'd love to live down that way. When I was a kid my grandparents lived in Normandy just down the road from Dickel...... that's what I consider God's country.

You know some folks over there?At JD?

Yep, sister and nephew work there. I know a few more that work there as well.

 

[RikidyBones]

Me too.... personal lines is for the birds. Where do you live?

Jacksonville, FL.

Commercial opened my eyes fresh out of college. We have an unnamed, of course, insured that has $1 billion in sales but doesn't have someone that cant pull a payroll summary, 941s, etc. It's unbelievable.

 

[Madscientistvol]

False. It was actually Reagan in 1988 that finally gave reparations to Japanese-Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Liberties_Act_of_1988

So you're wrong about taxpayers at the time paying for anything. It was taxpayers in the late 80s that paid for injustices committed by the US government 40 something years earlier. I'm sure most of the taxpayers in 1988 were not of voting age during WW2 when the internment camps existed (where one could make the argument that voting age adults at that time implicitly approved of the injustices committed by the US government against Japanese-Americans). And for what its worth I don't know why the taxpayers being alive when the incident happened matters. Taxpayers didn't directly commit the incident. It was elected officials that decided mistreating Japanese-Americans was a good idea.

So if the Japanese-Americans can get reparations 40 years after the fact, why can't black people get reparations 150 years later? Why is 40 years your arbitrary cut-off? And don't give me anything about slaves no longer being alive to collect what they are owed. The impact of slavery goes beyond the life of the slave. It has impact the lives of his and her descendants for generations. It is still felt among the descendants of slaves. If the promise of 40 acres and mule had been honored at the time, black people would have had access to generational wealth in terms of land ownership that could have totally changed the destiny of most black peoples lives living today.

Denying the descendants of slaves access to restitution for hundreds of years of free labor is an injustice. If that labor had been compensated to slaves at the time, the reality of life for black people in this country would be radically different. Black people might have actually had wealth they could have passed down to later generations.

You should actually read what the reparations for the Japanese were before parroting it and using it as an argument for Slavery reparations. Only Japanese American citizens who were actually held and were citizens were eligible for this. This affected the actual people the US wronged.

The US didn't free slaves for free. We waged the bloodiest war we've ever had to settle the issue, then occupied the south to ensure that it actually happened.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Modern taxpayers should pay for what happened 150 years ago for the same reason taxpayers in 1988 paid for something that happened about 45 years ago. I'm not here to get into an argument over what taxpayers should or should not pay for in a theoretical sense.

That's extremely lazy and unconvincing. he asked you a direct question that you refuse to answer. You'll never woo anyone to your side that way.

try this on:

"I'd like to hang any black person that gets above their station."

"What?! That is unethical and immoral! What possible ethical and moral mandate do you have for that?"

"Well, they did it all the time back in the /20s. We have precident."

"I'm not asking whether it's ever been done. I'm asking you to defend the morality o it."

"Oh, I'm not going to do that. I've just shown that it's happened before, so we should do it again. Where's the rope?"




See how vacuuous your argument is?


So, again... The gov't has no money. It has to take its money from its citizens. So, ethically and morally, why should citizens who have never owned slaves pay money to citizens who have never been slaves, because at some time 100+ years ago, some people were slaves?

 

[RikidyBones]

That's extremely lazy and unconvincing. he asked you a direct question that you refuse to answer. You'll never woo anyone to your side that way.

try this on:

"I'd like to hang any black person that gets above their station."

"What?! That is unethical and immoral! What possible ethical and moral mandate do you have for that?"

"Well, they did it all the time back in the /20s. We have precident."

"I'm not asking whether it's ever been done. I'm asking you to defend the morality o it."

"Oh, I'm not going to do that. I've just shown that it's happened before, so we should do it again. Where's the rope?"




See how vacuuous your argument is?


So, again... The gov't has no money. It has to take its money from its citizens. So, ethically and morally, why should citizens who have never owned slaves pay money to citizens who have never been slaves, because at some time 100+ years ago, some people were slaves?

He doesn't care about moral integrity. He only wants to get paid for nothing without thinking of the consequences or results.