Scott, Hendrix and Helm gone (officially per Butch)

#352
#352
bowlinggreenvol said:
You haven't figured out the answer yet? Nothing is Butch's fault. Folks get so latched on to a coach the lines of where their fandom lies gets blurred. I personally don't give a damn about any coach. Just win.
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Oh.... I knew the answer and I am with you. Program before the coach. Been arguing that since Majors.
 
#353
#353
VolNation logic:

VolNation - "What's the big deal? Scott and Hendrix didn't even beat out the freshman all Americans that were ahead of them at their respective position. They won't be missed."

Me - "But now our depth sucks at those positions, especially running back."

VolNation - "But we get Kamara, he's going to be a sure fire stud."

Me - "You mean the guy that didn't get any playing time on a team that featured a freshman all American running back?"

VolNation - "Exactly!"

Sigh
 
#354
#354
#356
#356
SamRebel35 said:
And quit with this mindless quip. Nobody is going to kill themselves because of this. I don't think the sky is falling or that our roster is now in shambles. It did take a hit, though. And I'm being labeled a heretic because I refuse to fall in lock step with the people that think it is perfectly normal and even good because "they were going to be recruited over anyway". This isn't good. It needs to stop if we're going to return to dominance. I'm not the negachrist because I have this opinion.
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FYP. Just kidding.

I agree with you. Preach on.
 
#357
#357
SamRebel35 said:
VolNation logic:

VolNation - "What's the big deal? Scott and Hendrix didn't even beat out the freshman all Americans that were ahead of them at their respective position. They won't be missed."

Me - "But now our depth sucks at those positions, especially running back."

VolNation - "But we get Kamara, he's going to be a sure fire stud."

Me - "You mean the guy that didn't get any playing time on a team that featured a freshman all American running back?"

VolNation - "Exactly!"

Sigh
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It's funny, I remember when Kamara picked Bama over us and everyone said he'd be a bust. Made fun of him for not playing at bama, but he's going to be an All American this coming year!!!
 
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#358
#358
SamRebel35 said:
No I still think Butch is the guy, but that doesn't mean he's going to do everything right. We don't have the depth or overall talent on the roster yet for him to be chasing off key contributors. That may not be what's happening. He may have done everything in his power to keep them. But let's not pretend like it is normal or that it is a good thing to be losing high potential players at positions where depth is and has been an issue. In the SEC, you need 3 or 4 running backs that are capable. Now, we may have only one or two... Just like all the years we have sucked. Tight end was still thin before we lost Helm. Now it is approaching emergency territory at that position. I think we've got good depth at DE, so Hendrix isn't a terrible loss from that standpoint, but it sucks because he had the highest ceiling of all of them.
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Ok so lets take RB first..from all indications Paulk is returnimg. I saw enough from Scott to know he wasn't a threat to win a job over Hurd or Kamara. Paulk and the othe 1-2 backs coming in this class will at least do as well as Scott. They sure as hell can't do much less. So in the overall picture...I don't give a crap about Scott the crybaby.."Those big meanies made me hurt my widdle hand mommy"..leaving.
 
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#359
#359
SamRebel35 said:
How many yards did Kamara have at Alabama his freshman year? And we're expecting him to be as good as Hurd this season, right? So which is it? Does a freshman suck if he doesn't start his freshman year? Or can they be good later in their career? Choose.
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0 yards. I don't think he ever played. In fact I believe he was hurt the entire time then got arrested for something dumb.

When you have freshman being difference makers on the field and freshman who arent..losing the ones that arent (just 3) isn't some death knell.

Kamara wouldnt have played much behind Bama's corps of RB's anyways. If the kid can avoid being arrested for stupid stuff (driving without a license, etc) he can probably do well.

With that being said I hate losing kids from the team but it is what it is. Hell it opens up some slots for some newbs next year.
 
#360
#360
Ulysees E. McGill said:
Ok so lets take RB first..from all indications Paulk is returnimg. I saw enough from Scott to know he wasn't a threat to win a job over Hurd or Kamara. Paulk and the othe 1-2 backs coming in this class will at least do as well as Scott. They sure as hell can't do much less. So in the overall picture...I don't give a crap about Scott the crybaby.."Those big meanies made me hurt my widdle hand mommy"..leaving.
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I'll feel better if Paulk comes back. Hadn't heard that it is likely, though. Where is that coming from?
 
#362
#362
BIG BOI 23 said:
mizzou churns out badass dl's like its nothin hendrix would be smart to go there

if im a vol id be pretty bummed about losing him and possibly sawyers i guess they came here with promises of playing early and it didnt workout happens everywhere
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If I were a Gator I'd find my own board. Attrition happens at every school every year. 5 guys out of 31 is not an abnormal attrition rate. I would love to compare it to other schools, but I don't really care enough to go to other schools boards and pester them about something that happens everywhere every year.
 
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#363
#363
SamRebel35 said:
VolNation logic:

VolNation - "What's the big deal? Scott and Hendrix didn't even beat out the freshman all Americans that were ahead of them at their respective position. They won't be missed."

Me - "But now our depth sucks at those positions, especially running back."

VolNation - "But we get Kamara, he's going to be a sure fire stud."

Me - "You mean the guy that didn't get any playing time on a team that featured a freshman all American running back?"

VolNation - "Exactly!"

Sigh
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Juco RB that didn't get any playing time behind on a team that featurex a freshman all american RB > a sophomore RB that didnt get any playing time on a team that featured a freshman all american RB.

Juco RB has had more time to develop and has more experience, and is thus better than said sophomore, all things being equal.
 
#365
#365
olbemw7 said:
Juco RB that didn't get any playing time behind on a team that featurex a freshman all american RB > a sophomore RB that didnt get any playing time on a team that featured a freshman all american RB.

Juco RB has had more time to develop and has more experience, and is thus better than said sophomore, all things being equal.
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So you're saying that Scott could develop into a good running back over time? That's news to me. Everyone else has already declared him a lost cause.

And I agree on Kamara. I think he will be a solid backup to Hurd, but we're kidding ourselves if we believe that we won't need a third or maybe even fourth running back at some parts of the season. It is the nature of that position in the SEC, and our depth took a hit because of it. If the stuff about Paulk is true, it definitely helps the situation a bit imo, but having Scott would've still been nice.
 
#366
#366
Some players are talented, but become cancers to the team. Not sure if Hendrix and Scott are these players but potentially... Coach Jones talks about energy vampires-he doesn't just say things to hear himself-he is very calculated with what he releases to public. We may not understand, but the players and staff do.

Helms a nice kid, probably too nice. Home schooled kids are usually very sheltered and soft. Wolf and Ellis were playing better than him. I wish him luck, hopefully will toughen up and play somewhere else.
 
#367
#367
Wow...page 25 and folks are still going nuts about something that is pretty normal. Attrition rates for college students is what it is. Agree with those who said being away from home, undecided about future, harder than they thought, girl friend somewhere else, are all reasons for a young man to decide to switch gears. There are plenty of fish in the sea and I believe CBJ is doing a heck of a job recruiting. Agree we need more linemen, depth, running backs, etc., but don't you think CBJ is onto that? C'mon man! Let's do something constructive with this and identify some high school or juco players we have seen that CBJ might want to take a look at. I watched the Tennessee East-West and Keshaun Vaughn (sp?) sure ran well and is not committed YET. I am sure there are more out there who would love to fill one of those newly empty VFL slots. Agree?
 
#368
#368
Freak said:
I don't believe only being able to average losing three players per year to maintain a full roster is accurate. If I understand your math correctly, I think you may be failing to factor in redshirts. Kids on the roster typically span five recruiting classes.

It would be interesting to figure out what that number actually is, but it's over my head. I'm still not sure I fully understand how we signed 32 last year. :lol:
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The reason why very few teams field 85 on team with recruited players. It's why walkons get one year schollies as a reward their last year sometimes.
 
#369
#369
VOLorNuttin said:
We like to defend the coaches because we tend to be 100% optimistic about whoever is in charge, but the sad reality is, the same people who do that were doggedly defending Kiffin and Dooley the very same way.
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Well, not the exact same people. I don't think I have ever defended a coach personally but I have argued against public criticism of coaches so it pretty much amounted to the same thing.

I was wrong. I was wrong in a big way for a long time... going back to Fulmer.

Honest, respectful criticism of coaches and program results is NOT something that will sink the program. If anything, it creates a "positive" kind of pressure to perform. In total from fans at all levels, it keeps the bar from being set too low.

The truth is, this staff is probably going to look back on this year and learn from their MISTAKES. Yes, they sometimes make them, just like players do. Butch said multiple times this year that they constantly conduct self-evaluations to look for areas they can change or improve upon, as coaches. I hope they look at these losses and ask themselves what they can do to prevent it (as much as possible), going forward
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I hope they do. I hope if they truly are prone to profane language that they'll decide to project a more professional demeanor. If their goal is truly to build great young men... you don't do it by using gutter language that MOST corporations have low tolerance for now.

I hope they learn to play more guys like you suggest though I wouldn't want them to drop their standard just to get guys in. I hope they take a good long look at how they evaluate OL's. The one specific rather than general complaint I have is that Kendrick didn't get more of a chance at LT. He seemed much more athletic than Kerbyson. IIRC, they use written tests and things like that to help them score OL's. At some level, an LT just has to be athletic enough to beat the guy in front of him... whether he can score highest on a test or not.


But my problem is with the legions here who just absolutely go nuts at the first hint of criticism of the staff... they rationalize absolutely everything to avoid having the coaches accountable for ANYTHING. I wish I could make the kind of money some of them are making and not really be held accountable for anything... even if it were just for 2 or 3 years. I'd retire to Costa Rica.
 
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#370
#370
FLVOL_79 said:
Man three people who didn't contribute much of anything all year; the sky is falling!!
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So is Jones wrong or is your thinking wrong? According to Jones, successful programs bring in talented players, develop them for 2-3 years, then put them on the field. That pretty much says that you DON'T expect them to contribute as Fr.... but you also can't lose them before they become 2nd and 3rd year players.

The sky is not falling. But the excuses being used here every day... are.
 
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#371
#371
Evet Vols said:
In response to sjt18 -" How do you KNOW where he's taking the program and WHEN do you expect championships? Specific answers please.... with some kind of proof to back them up."

I don't KNOW but I FEEL the Coach is taking TN in the right direction. This team is getting in real talent that can compete in the SEC and they are playing all 4 quarters and not quitting. The last several years TN was playing lethargic and this year they played more like they did in the 90s. I expect TN could win the East as early as next year and win the SEC and get National Championship playoff in 2 years. We will have enough talent to compete with everyone in the East in 2015. TN competed with everyone in the East this year and TN is only getting stronger.
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Thanks for that clarification. I would just request a little more respect for us that require more than a "feeling" and are troubled by some of the deficiencies and short comings we see.

I've been here a long time. I've been more or less on your side of the fence. You can call me jaded if you like but cliches and promises no longer satisfy me. We've heard them from each coach going all the way back to the point where many first realized anything was wrong... 2005. The problems actually extend all the way back to 2000. Team discipline fell off. Subpar coaching was accepted by CPF because of loyalty. Recruiting began to fall off. The rest of the SEC began to bring in much better coaches.... then it showed up on the field in 2005.

Jones HAS dealt with many of the structural and fundamental issues within the program. But there are others still out there and some of them big enough to de-rail the whole rebuilding effort.

I'm going to give you a number inside the number to illustrate it. Fulmer's DL and specifically DT recruiting had fallen to critical levels. In truth, he left Kiffin only one SEC quality DT. His OL recruiting wasn't much better.

Jones signed 4 DE's and no DT's in 2013. Two of those DE's including the only 4* are gone. I think I read that Vickers may have been moved inside? In '14, Jones signed 3 guys listed as DE's- all 4* players. Two of them are gone. That's 4 of the 7 DE's signed in the last two years... that's too much attrition to build quality depth. They signed 3 guys listed as DT's. Sawyer appears to be on his way out if reports bear true (and all of the bad rumors lately seem to be coming true). Robertson flipped to the OL. Owen Williams a JUCO made a nice contribution. That's only 3 DT commits in two years... and only one will ever contribute at DT. That's not enough to build quality depth.

The OL problems are very well documented. Attrition hasn't been a problem yet but performance has. Hopefully another year of development coupled with the experience that returns will resolve that... but I do not see anything they've done on the OL that inspires faith that we're going to see a big or sudden turn around.

These kinds of problems were the kind that sunk Fulmer and the program to start with... It has to improve or your feeling is going to be massively disappointed.


If you want to go off of a positive "feeling" then that's fine for you. Just don't ask everyone else to close their eyes.
 
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#372
#372
FLVOL_79 said:
Hendrix had 2 tackles all season...
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True FR aren't expected to contribute, on normal years on most teams. These losses have nothing to do with their contribution this year, it's the loss of depth, system experience, S&C experience and potential. Guess Tee wouldn't have been much of a loss since he didn't contribute as a FR. I'm sure Bama wishes Sims would've transferred since he didn't contribute for his first 4yrs. Do you see how stupid you sound now?
 
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#373
#373
SamRebel35 said:
So you're saying that Scott could develop into a good running back over time? That's news to me. Everyone else has already declared him a lost cause.

.
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I've been on the "this is bad" side of this debate but honestly I never really understood why Scott was a 4* RB or why UT signed him. He didn't have great size nor great top end speed. I'm sure the staff considered him a "project". Maybe he thought he was ready to go right away?

Of all the departures, I think he hurts the least. His departure may even be a net positive.
 
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#374
#374
Whether in football or life in general, here is how these things typically go. One player (Say Hendrix) has an inflated view of his abilities, which is normal human nature. We all do it. He sees another guy (Say Barnett) playing ahead of him and getting lots of accolades. He gets bitter because he thinks he should have been playing in front of the other guy all along. He quits and moves on rather than working harder to get better.
 
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