Run Game Misconception

#51
#51
Vol8188 said:
Thanks, I'm glad someone saw the light. I was never proclaiming this was some magical offense that was unstoppable, nor that UT should run in. I'm just saying it isn't inferior, and that plenty of pro style teams run it.
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Thanks for starting a football thread. Even if there is disagreement this is the best part about this board, actually talking football.
 
#52
#52
I think the other misconception I see with zone schemes is that you cannot run the ball "powerfully", and that you need a smaller quicker back. Arian Foster, Marshawn Lynch, Legarrette Blount, Trent Richardson, and a few billion other running backs in the world would disagree with that.
 
#53
#53
17Vols said:
you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and even if you did, you're boring. call this the " i'm gonna use big words and pretend to be a coach " thread.

why can't you just tell made up stories about running into players at wal-mart like everyone else??
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Man! Either post something that shows he is full of it or quit being a troll.
 
#54
#54
Different approaches with similar results. Nine times out of ten, you won't have the athletes to run ride, jab, or bob. That said, you most likely won't have the speed to run straight tight and wide zone, which a handful of teams do. On an NFL level, you really see both, unless you're Houston, Seattle, and Manning era Indy. Howie Mudd being in Philly also showed. The simplicity of zone is what makes it so great. Literally, all Gibbs and Mudd teams do is run 14-15 and 18/19 with tags on them. And no one did this better than the Sota' and Colorado teams in the 80s and 90s. You rep the hell out of this stuff, and you will be efficient.What people fail to realize is that while zone was the big thing in the past two decades, the real movement is toward the passing option game. Tag Y-stick or sail into a play where you read the drop of the ss backers and then convert into a run play if it isn't there. Holgorsen is light years ahead of people for this reason. Throw in diamond loaded sets, a Spurrier era run game out of shotgun with the simplicity of an air raid/tfs installation and you have a high-rep, extremely efficient system.
 
#55
#55
bam15 said:
Different approaches with similar results. Nine times out of ten, you won't have the athletes to run ride, jab, or bob. That said, you most likely won't have the speed to run straight tight and wide zone, which a handful of teams do. On an NFL level, you really see both, unless you're Houston, Seattle, and Manning era Indy. Howie Mudd being in Philly also showed. The simplicity of zone is what makes it so great. Literally, all Gibbs and Mudd teams do is run 14-15 and 18/19 with tags on them. And no one did this better than the Sota' and Colorado teams in the 80s and 90s. You rep the hell out of this stuff, and you will be efficient.What people fail to realize is that while zone was the big thing in the past two decades, the real movement is toward the passing option game. Tag Y-stick or sail into a play where you read the drop of the ss backers and then convert into a run play if it isn't there. Holgorsen is light years ahead of people for this reason. Throw in diamond loaded sets, a Spurrier era run game out of shotgun with the simplicity of an air raid/tfs installation and you have a high-rep, extremely efficient system.
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ride, jab, and bob. I know different coaches call things differently (like wide zone/outside/stretch), what do you call jab? I'm guessing by ride you mean zone read and by bob you mean the fb lead as in back on backer. Is that correct?
 
#56
#56
bam15 said:
Different approaches with similar results. Nine times out of ten, you won't have the athletes to run ride, jab, or bob. That said, you most likely won't have the speed to run straight tight and wide zone, which a handful of teams do. On an NFL level, you really see both, unless you're Houston, Seattle, and Manning era Indy. Howie Mudd being in Philly also showed. The simplicity of zone is what makes it so great. Literally, all Gibbs and Mudd teams do is run 14-15 and 18/19 with tags on them. And no one did this better than the Sota' and Colorado teams in the 80s and 90s. You rep the hell out of this stuff, and you will be efficient.What people fail to realize is that while zone was the big thing in the past two decades, the real movement is toward the passing option game. Tag Y-stick or sail into a play where you read the drop of the ss backers and then convert into a run play if it isn't there. Holgorsen is light years ahead of people for this reason. Throw in diamond loaded sets, a Spurrier era run game out of shotgun with the simplicity of an air raid/tfs installation and you have a high-rep, extremely efficient system.
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I got to see Hal Mumme and his son at a coaching clinic at Davidson about a month ago. His son runs the stick route like your talking about with a run option to it. He does it out of trips, and uses has the back and oline run power. If the olb covers the stick, you hand off. If the olb stays home, you throw the stick route. Good stuff really.
 
#57
#57
Vol8188 said:
ride, jab, and bob. I know different coaches call things differently (like wide zone/outside/stretch), what do you call jab? I'm guessing by ride you mean zone read and by bob you mean the fb lead as in back on backer. Is that correct?
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Jab = misdirection, where the qb opens away from number and hands off at midpoint. Ride = qb faces play number and handoff is on the same side. You just add terms (Slam/Lead Bong/Zorro). Yes.

Vol8188 said:
I got to see Hal Mumme and his son at a coaching clinic at Davidson about a month ago. His son runs the stick route like your talking about with a run option to it. He does it out of trips, and uses has the back and oline run power. If the olb covers the stick, you hand off. If the olb stays home, you throw the stick route. Good stuff really.
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Yes, like so: Holgorsen Stick/Draw Package Concept - YouTube
Now you're seeing this out of spacing, sail, cross, drive, smash whatever. You run this like the shoot teams with choice and leverage reads and you have what the Pats are doing. Packaged plays is where the true revolution is at. You used to have only beaters, and sight adjustments built into different sides, but now the trend is to build in packaged run plays. Simple, but huge concepts like that, 24/7 redball, nascar no-huddle, and formation variety is the future. Having a few concepts that are easily repped with a lot of looks is 10 times better than running 400 different plays out of the same formation. You used to have WCO teams run half their game out of red (split) sets.
 
#58
#58
bam15 said:
Jab = misdirection, where the qb opens away from number and hands off at midpoint. Ride = qb faces play number and handoff is on the same side. You just add terms (Slam/Lead Bong/Zorro). Yes.



Yes, like so: Holgorsen Stick/Draw Package Concept - YouTube
Now you're seeing this out of spacing, sail, cross, drive, smash whatever. You run this like the shoot teams with choice and leverage reads and you have what the Pats are doing. Packaged plays is where the true revolution is at. You used to have only beaters, and sight adjustments built into different sides, but now the trend is to build in packaged run plays. Simple, but huge concepts like that, 24/7 redball, nascar no-huddle, and formation variety is the future. Having a few concepts that are easily repped with a lot of looks is 10 times better than running 400 different plays out of the same formation. You used to have WCO teams run half their game out of red (split) sets.
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Isn't running basically the same concepts out of a bunch of formations what Mike Leach does? I remember reading somewhere that his play sheet is like an index card and they just change the set.
 
#59
#59
Il Principo said:
Isn't running basically the same concepts out of a bunch of formations what Mike Leach does? I remember reading somewhere that his play sheet is like an index card and they just change the set.
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I believe so. His offense evolved from BYU's multiple formation west coast style offense, so it would make since. I believe he has a quote about why he uses a ton of formations and very few plays that goes something like this, "instead of teaching a kid something else to do, it's a lot easier to just teach him a new place to stand". I know he also runs 4 verticals a ton.
 
#61
#61
Thanks guys, I thought so. Seems like a good idea in the college game, making it simpler for the kids. It's worked for Leach anyway.
 
#63
#63
Leach actually simplifies his offense to the extent that every player only plays one position. For example, the Y receiver (TE) always lines up on the right side of the field and the X receiver (Split end) always lines up on the left. Leach doesn't like using players in multiple positions. He just wants the players to get into one spot and perfect their role.
 
#64
#64
volstopfan14 said:
Leach actually simplifies his offense to the extent that every player only plays one position. For example, the Y receiver (TE) always lines up on the right side of the field and the X receiver (Split end) always lines up on the left. Leach doesn't like using players in multiple positions. He just wants the players to get into one spot and perfect their role.
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I really like that they don't flip their formations. I think that really makes things easier for the kids.

His disciple Holgerson's offense is so simple he installs it in 3 days.
 
#65
#65
volstopfan14 said:
Leach actually simplifies his offense to the extent that every player only plays one position. For example, the Y receiver (TE) always lines up on the right side of the field and the X receiver (Split end) always lines up on the left. Leach doesn't like using players in multiple positions. He just wants the players to get into one spot and perfect their role.
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I guess if Leach went to Vandy he wouldn't have to use that approach :)
 
#66
#66
Il Principo said:
Isn't running basically the same concepts out of a bunch of formations what Mike Leach does? I remember reading somewhere that his play sheet is like an index card and they just change the set.
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Really, he doesn't deviate from his personnel and formations very often. Although, him hiring a pistol guy at Wazoo tells us that this might be changing. He used to be a huge mesh guy back in the early TT-Kentucky days, but doesn't use it any more. He could probably draw out his playbook on a napkin. Chow gave him the framework, and him, Mumme, Tony Franklin, Chris Hatcher, and to the largest degree, Dana Holgorsen took off with it.
 
#67
#67
bam15 said:
Really, he doesn't deviate from his personnel and formations very often. Although, him hiring a pistol guy at Wazoo tells us that this might be changing. He used to be a huge mesh guy back in the early TT-Kentucky days, but doesn't use it any more. He could probably draw out his playbook on a napkin. Chow gave him the framework, and him, Mumme, Tony Franklin, Chris Hatcher, and to the largest degree, Dana Holgorsen took off with it.
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Lol he actually did. When he and Mumme were at Valdosta State they would go to a coffee shop and draw plays on the napkins.



But like you said, the personnel is usually the same. Either 4 WR/1 RB or 3 WR/2 RB.
 
#68
#68
volstopfan14 said:
Lol he actually did. When he and Mumme were at Valdosta State they would go to a coffee shop and draw plays on the napkins.



But like you said, the personnel is usually the same. Either 4 WR/1 RB or 3 WR/2 RB.
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I remember that from Swing Your Sword. They also used a lot of 2rb and 1 te like your traditional BYU stuff.
 
#69
#69
Vol8188 said:
I remember that from Swing Your Sword. They also used a lot of 2rb and 1 te like your traditional BYU stuff.
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He didn't do as much of that at Tech though, did he? I've seen a playbook of his from when he was the OC at Oklahoma that is basically all 2 RB 1 TE but he really went away from that at Tech.
 
#70
#70
volstopfan14 said:
He didn't do as much of that at Tech though, did he? I've seen a playbook of his from when he was the OC at Oklahoma that is basically all 2 RB 1 TE but he really went away from that at Tech.
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I don't know, but they used the TE a lot at Kentucky.
 
#71
#71
Somebody needs to read what Chip Kelly says about running both zone and man - that he believes in physical man blocking. He just leaves one man unblocked in his schemes, which leads to iso, misdirection, sprint draw, and sprint option.

The use of the TE and FB differentiates sprint draw from zone iso. It does not have to be a pure FB to make a block from a FB type position. Any running back or TE (H-back) can block to the inside leg of the DT as a fullback on the iso. It's about the angle of attack of the lead block. Sprint draw uses an angle as compared to straight ahead. Sprint draw is also about the overall scheme that includes formation, blocking technique, motion - in addition to the blocking scheme.

Oregon is multiple. They use zone and man. They use sprint option and sprint draw. They do have two backs in formation frequently with the QB. They may motion one out or run a counter. They have even used the old fashioned crossbuck before. They run motion from the RB and TE for the inside and outside iso.

UF was multiple under Urban. They used the TE rather than the RB for their iso. They ran more sprint option, but also some sprint draw with the TE providing the angle block. Charlie Weiss ran more sprint draw than Urban. Based on recent reports Urban will be running more sprint draw than sprint option at OSU as he has the players for sprint draw - which OSU used for many years. However, he will be running some of his quicker sprint option plays per their spring practice. Over time he may recruit more for sprint option if he has success.

UT started with sprint draw zone and tried some man toward the end of last season. Butch Jones, the HC of UC said as much in his post game interview. They were surprised by it since they knew Tyler Bray would not run the ball. That threat is always present in both sprint draw and sprint option. That is why we stunk at it, along with line inexperience.

Nearly always UT ran right when they tried man counters and traps because Fulton was too slow to pull and make a block when they tried him going left. You can and most all teams run counter treys and misdirection from both schemes. UT did not do much of it because the players simply did not understand what they were doing. The mistake in formation was with having the RB line up 9 years behind the line of scrimmage. With the line not being able to run block well - the creases were closed by the time he hit the line. Had they moved him up to a normal 6-7 yards and ran a traditional zone scheme the rushing yards would have been some better - more like the season before. When Tyler came back from the injury they wanted to make sure he was out of the fray for reinjury so they ran the Pistol. The RB is 10 yards back in the Pistol. You simply cannot run a straight man or zone blocking scheme and run the ball when the RB is 10 yards back. It is too slow to develop with the sprint draw blocking. Even that did not work because SEC D's are too good and too smart to be fooled by it. Result - #116 in rushing the nation and some really ugly losses.

You also know it is sprint draw by where the QB takes the snap in the shot gun and by how many steps he drops back to hand the ball off or set up for the pass on a direct snap. Nearly all of the passes were from a 5-7 step drop. Nearly all of the handoffs were 5-7 yards back from the line.

I know I make mistakes and understand folks have different viewpoints. That is what makes the conversations interesting. Just leave the condescending stuff out.
 
#72
#72
Vols4us said:
Somebody needs to read what Chip Kelly says about running both zone and man - that he believes in physical man blocking. He just leaves one man unblocked in his schemes, which leads to iso, misdirection, sprint draw, and sprint option.
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This is what Chip Kelly says about the running game:

http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/pdfdocs/oregonruns.pdf

Here's a few quotes from his clinic presentation above:

"We have four running plays. We run the inside zone, outside zone, counter, and draw."

"The inside zone is our 'go to work' play. It has become our signature play."

In reference to the inside zone "We ran this play 202 times this past season."

"We ran outside zone 122 times last season for 6.8 yards per carry."


Chip Kelly is a true zone guy. He uses midline and LB reads (both of which are still zone plays) sometimes in his zone read game, but he is in noway a man or sprint draw scheme kinda guy.
 
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