Obama meddling in Israeli election?

#52
#52
Whether or not one thinks an American administration should have the right or the ability to influence foreign elections, America's history with installing the leaders we want in foreign lands hasn't exactly been stellar.

Perhaps we should stay out of this particular game, because we kind of suck at it.
 
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#53
#53
theFallGuy said:
I'm not saying you are incorrect but please link any info regarding Karl Rove minions working on foreign campaigns.
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I will see what I can find that is publicly available. This is a statement from personal knowledge. I will expand that out and say other Republican operatives do this regularly. I am not incorrect. This is a way of life for some of the best in the business.
 
#55
#55
hog88 said:
Good grief. You cannot blame a BN for civilian deaths when responding to attacks and your attackers are using civilians as shields.
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I can and I will. I hold persons responsible for their decisions. The persons making these decisions believe with great certainty that civilians will be killed by their own strikes. And, they go ahead and make the call and authorize the strike.

You seem to be under the impression that because the Palestinian fighters are using unjust tactics then anyone who opposes them must be just and justified. That's a fallacy.

The blood is on both the hands of Palestinian terrorists and the hands of the Israeli government and forces.

hog88 said:
Private citizens of other countries or our citizens want to campaign in other countries, sure. Not our government and not another government.
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With respect to other countries, Obama is a private individual, as he holds no public office in other countries. Now, if you want to claim that US tax-dollars ought not be used for such things, that, to me, is an interesting argument. But, if you want to claim that US politicians and elected officials ought not support political campaigns in other countries, I share no common sentiment.
 
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#56
#56
volinbham said:
Just saying it would be nice if our elected leaders told us what they were doing.

Guess that makes me nuts.
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It would be nice. However, being lied to by our elected officials is not some new phenomenon that came along with Obama. It's been happening since the 1790s.
 
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#57
#57
King Barry Soetoro interfering in Israeli elections wont work because he's hated worse by the Israelis than by Americans. The Israelis wont give all their land to the Palestinians because that will be the death of Israel.
 
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#58
#58
hog88 said:
First of all ISIS wouldn't be holding elections.
Second yes it's the risk you take with democracy.
Third are you really comparing Netanyahu to ISIS?
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Just seeing if you believe what you posted.

It's unclear to me why the U.S. government can engage in all sorts of behavior (economically, militarily) to influence policy in other nations, then remain completely hands off when it comes to elections

therealUT said:
Why not? The Nazi Regime held elections. Saddam's regime held elections. Iran currently holds elections.
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Actually, ISIS doesn't believe in elections. I just presented a hypothetical.
 
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#59
#59
Here are some references that I found quickly on Republican consultants being involved in overseas campaigns. Vincent Harris has a background with Rove in Texas. There are a few lesser known names out there as well. Not to mention everyone's favorite fetish guy and worst prognosticator ever Dick Morris.

President Obama campaign consultants make mark overseas - Kenneth P. Vogel and Ben Smith - POLITICO.com

American advisers, money shape Israel's election

American media guru denies Republicans sent him to help Benjamin Netanyahu re-election campaign - Israel Elections - Jerusalem Post
 
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#63
#63
therealUT said:
I can and I will. I hold persons responsible for their decisions. The persons making these decisions believe with great certainty that civilians will be killed by their own strikes. And, they go ahead and make the call and authorize the strike.

You seem to be under the impression that because the Palestinian fighters are using unjust tactics then anyone who opposes them must be just and justified. That's a fallacy.

The blood is on both the hands of Palestinian terrorists and the hands of the Israeli government and forces.



With respect to other countries, Obama is a private individual, as he holds no public office in other countries. Now, if you want to claim that US tax-dollars ought not be used for such things, that, to me, is an interesting argument. But, if you want to claim that US politicians and elected officials ought not support political campaigns in other countries, I share no common sentiment.
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The blood of the innocents is on the aggressors hands and only theirs. In this case the responsibility for the spilt blood lie's solely on the Palestinians.

Obama is not a private citizen, to claim such is asinine.
 
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#67
#67
CSpindizzy said:
Here are some references that I found quickly on Republican consultants being involved in overseas campaigns. Vincent Harris has a background with Rove in Texas. There are a few lesser known names out there as well. Not to mention everyone's favorite fetish guy and worst prognosticator ever Dick Morris.

President Obama campaign consultants make mark overseas - Kenneth P. Vogel and Ben Smith - POLITICO.com

American advisers, money shape Israel's election

American media guru denies Republicans sent him to help Benjamin Netanyahu re-election campaign - Israel Elections - Jerusalem Post
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Thanks for the links. Interesting that you have State Department funds that went to One Voice but from the USA Today article it only says the money was spent on "Israeli Palestinian negotiations". That is pretty vague IMO
 
#68
#68
theFallGuy said:
Thanks for the links. Interesting that you have State Department funds that went to One Voice but from the USA Today article it only says the money was spent on "Israeli Palestinian negotiations". That is pretty vague IMO
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These NGO's have a shell game way of working. They can get government money, grants, foundation money, private donors, etc. They then typically dish it out to other groups or do activities directly themselves. Money gets dumped into a pool and mixes. Technically, DoS money may not have been earmarked for a specific purpose. And legally it could be argued that way. Same concepts work in political campaigns here with leadership PACs, Super PACs, etc. The CU decision made the waters even muddier.
 
#71
#71
hog88 said:
The blood of the innocents is on the aggressors hands and only theirs.
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Israel is an aggressor, as is are Palestinian terrorists. Again, you make the fallacy of thinking that where there is a conflict and one party is an aggressor, the other cannot be. That's simply not the case.

hog88 said:
In this case the responsibility for the spilt blood lie's solely on the Palestinians.
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Unfortunately, it does not. It lies with those who make the decisions to kill, knowing that civilians will be killed.

hog88 said:
Obama is not a private citizen, to claim such is asinine.
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Obama does not hold public office in any other country. In that respect, he is just like anyone else who campaigns and supports elections. It appears that your argument reduces to something of the following sort, "The President of the United States has more influence across the world than other Americans, so while other Americans are permitted to work to influence elections in other countries, the President ought not be permitted."

If that is the case, I still fail to see why the President ought not be permitted? Why is it that one who has the capacity to greatly influence ought to be limited in how they can actually go about influencing?
 
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#73
#73
therealUT said:
Israel is an aggressor, as is are Palestinian terrorists. Again, you make the fallacy of thinking that where there is a conflict and one party is an aggressor, the other cannot be. That's simply not the case.



Unfortunately, it does not. It lies with those who make the decisions to kill, knowing that civilians will be killed.



Obama does not hold public office in any other country. In that respect, he is just like anyone else who campaigns and supports elections. It appears that your argument reduces to something of the following sort, "The President of the United States has more influence across the world than other Americans, so while other Americans are permitted to work to influence elections in other countries, the President ought not be permitted."

If that is the case, I still fail to see why the President ought not be permitted? Why is it that one who has the capacity to greatly influence ought to be limited in how they can actually go about influencing?
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It's clear that we will never agree the first two paragraphs and that is fine. Just two diametrically opposed mindsets.

The reason a POTUS should (not that they do) stay out of the election process of allied nations is that he represents the US and our foreign policy. Not just for the immediate future but for years to come.

I oppose our President interfering as much as I would oppose a foreign power interfering in ours. I do not believe our President, regardless of party would have the best interest of the other nations people or ours. He would place his political interest above all.
 
#75
#75
So nice to hear an actual leader, who will call the enemy by name. I wonder if Israel would trade with us?
 
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