Montana discussion (split from Archie thread)

[VolsSportsFan]

Joe Montana is definitely near the top in the conversation for GOAT, but I think his winning is over-emphasized. He was great, but he was also right place at right time. Bill Walsh and that west coast offense was so innovative and effective, it's still a big part of the NFL.

What happens if Montana goes Dolphins and Marino goes 49ers? I figure JM would have Dan Fouts type numbers and maybe 1 title. He'd be the same QB but it would change the conversation a ton. That's how fickle these things are.

In the end it really doesn't matter because A) they're all Hall of Famers and B) ultimately the GOAT is subjective and opinion. I think a case can be made for 3-4 QBs and all are legit.

The only thing I can't stand in the discussion is when assertions are made as fact that are just as much opinion, or in some cases flat out wrong.

 

[jakez4ut]

it's also how you view those facts.

TErry Bradshaw is 4-0 in Super Bowls, and i can guarantee there weren't any rules to protect him, WR's, or anyone else on offense. there weren't rules for horse collar or blow to the head or anything....

point being, it's subjective. the counter to that is, today's athletes would destroy athletes of the 60's and 70's. you're both right.

so here's how i look at it......

you can take a hodge podge of qb's...Montana, Brady, Elway, Manning, Starr, Unitas, Staubach, Aikman, Marino, Bradshaw, Kelly, Favre, Baugh.... and i'm sure there's a few i'm missing and hash it all out.

but i'd bet in most cases, you will NEVER be able to have this conversation and not include most all the names above as part of the discussion. and in most any case you won't be doing any of those names a disservice by including them anywhere on that list.

 

[TGVol]

I love how these arguments are stacked so that it just so happens the great quarterbacks on the greatest teams are punished because they happened to be on great teams. And hardly any dropoff? I don't know about you, but going from 4 Super Bowl wins to 1 is a bit of a dropoff.

And you must love even more the fact that Montana threw only HALF as many career TD's as Peyton, and 30,000 LESS total career yards then Peyton? Because you know that is much more than a bit of a dropoff when you compare QB's. And those are individual stats rather than team stats (and as much as you would like to change the subject we are comparing INDIVIDUAL QB's in this thread rather than Colts vs Patriots vs 49ers).

 

[BearCat204]

And you must love even more the fact that Montana threw only HALF as many career TD's as Peyton, and 30,000 LESS total career yards then Peyton? Because you know that is much more than a bit of a dropoff when you compare QB's. And those are individual stats rather than team stats (and as much as you would like to change the subject we are comparing INDIVIDUAL QB's in this thread rather than Colts vs Patriots vs 49ers).

Just about every stat is a "team" stat......QB's throwing to themselves or blocking for themselves?

 

[BearCat204]

There can be a legitimate argument for GOAT for 3-4 QB'S in the league......including Peyton, Brady, and Montana.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

And you must love even more the fact that Montana threw only HALF as many career TD's as Peyton, and 30,000 LESS total career yards then Peyton? Because you know that is much more than a bit of a dropoff when you compare QB's. And those are individual stats rather than team stats (and as much as you would like to change the subject we are comparing INDIVIDUAL QB's in this thread rather than Colts vs Patriots vs 49ers).

Well, it would have been easier for you to say "Wow, I was wrong, I guess they did have a dropoff instead of the implication I made that they went on just like normal".

But no, you built yourself a nice strawman to tear down. I didn't change the subject genius, I was responding to YOUR post that the Niners kept going as usual. But quite funny you accuse me of changing the subject.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Just about every stat is a "team" stat......QB's throwing to themselves or blocking for themselves?

This.

 

[TGVol]

Just about every stat is a "team" stat......QB's throwing to themselves or blocking for themselves?

However some stats are much more appropriate to measure individual performance. There is nothing more basic than TD's and yards thrown to measure QB effectivness. By the way, if that was not true and playing on winning teams was a better way to measure QB's then NFL scouts would be drafting people like Tebow ahead of Peyton. :crazy:

 

[TGVol]

Well, it would have been easier for you to say "Wow, I was wrong,

You are getting closer. Your next step should be to do exactly that so we can stop wasting time.

 

[BearCat204]

However some stats are much more appropriate to measure individual performance. There is nothing more basic than TD's and yards thrown to measure QB effectivness. By the way, if that was not true and playing on winning teams was a better way to measure QB's then NFL scouts would be drafting people like Tebow ahead of Peyton. :crazy:

Totally missed it, but no worries. Every great quarterback has had great receivers, and line. Of course those are categorized as individual stats, but those stats are very much the result of great team effort.

 

[TGVol]

Totally missed it, but no worries.

Try reading it again - maybe you'll get it the second time.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

You are getting closer. Your next step should be to do exactly that so we can stop wasting time.

Already ahead of you. Obviously trying to have this conversation with a guy who has PM as his avatar is a complete waste of time.

 

[TGVol]

Already ahead of you. Obviously trying to have this conversation with a guy who has PM as his avatar is a complete waste of time.

Yeah - how could anyone dare using Peyton Manning avatar on the Tennessee football forum? I guess it would make more sense to use Tom Brady avatar. :crazy:

 

[JVol76]

Montana happened to play on the best offense (talent wise best receiver duo ever and also phenomenal RB) and where all plays were called by the best offensive coach ever (Walsh was a genius who supposedly charted the first 20 offensive plays of the games before the games even started). Therefore Montana was totally a system QB who given his relatively modest individual stats (if I remember correctly top 20 or so in total career TD's and yards) should be lucky to even be considered as top 10 all times). By the way, we just went through that whole argument about Brady so please don't tell me you still don't get this simple concept where TEAM accomplishments do not equate to PLAYER accomplishments). By the way, didn't Steve Young pick up where Montana left it without hardly any dropoff in terms of SF winning (another proof that was all about that system and having Jerry Rice to throw the ball too).

You realize he won 2 of those Super Bowls without Rice correct? He is regarded by his peers as the best ever and if you saw him play you know why. He would absolutely excel in today's NFL and there is no arguing that. The fact that you are questioning if he should be top 10 all time means you don't know a damn thing about football.

 

[ScornedPapaVol]

Montana is the GOAT.