Malaysia Boeing 777

Hey, don't give a lib facts.

if you see my OP I state anger at the mayor and governor too. And just to confuse your "you can only be a Republican or Democrat" mind, I consider myself a republican, I just know from people who were actually trying to get something done that the system failed them. Again my family member made calls (radio) to mayors office, who couldn't be reached, then the governor who also couldn't be reached. Eventually he barked up the line of command trying to get resources moving and was directed to the office of the President, after a day of spotty communications. And when he (my family member) finally got into contact with someone that could do something he was told the President couldn't be bothered. My family member still tears up with the frustration of being in nominal command of a situation where people were dying and suffering and he couldn't do anything because others wouldn't help out.

And yes to someone's question, I believe the President should have broken the law, declared a national emergency, Katrina hit more than Louisiana, and got the ball rolling. His "invasion" then would have been by the states own national guard, who would have arrived to conduct search and rescue, and provide medical aid, not arrived with tanks, A10 gunships, and JDAMs. Get off your party's nut sack and look at it objectively. You are getting all over Obama for not taking action on international issues but are saying Bush did no wrong with his inaction when it came to the worst natural disaster this country has faced.
 
if you see my OP I state anger at the mayor and governor too. And just to confuse your "you can only be a Republican or Democrat" mind, I consider myself a republican, I just know from people who were actually trying to get something done that the system failed them. Again my family member made calls (radio) to mayors office, who couldn't be reached, then the governor who also couldn't be reached. Eventually he barked up the line of command trying to get resources moving and was directed to the office of the President, after a day of spotty communications. And when he (my family member) finally got into contact with someone that could do something he was told the President couldn't be bothered. My family member still tears up with the frustration of being in nominal command of a situation where people were dying and suffering and he couldn't do anything because others wouldn't help out.

And yes to someone's question, I believe the President should have broken the law, declared a national emergency, Katrina hit more than Louisiana, and got the ball rolling. His "invasion" then would have been by the states own national guard, who would have arrived to conduct search and rescue, and provide medical aid, not arrived with tanks, A10 gunships, and JDAMs. Get off your party's nut sack and look at it objectively. You are getting all over Obama for not taking action on international issues but are saying Bush did no wrong with his inaction when it came to the worst natural disaster this country has faced.

Just wow.

First, Katrina was not the worst disaster this country has ever faced. It just has the distinction of being the worst MANAGED disaster (at the local New Orleans and state of LA levels). Have you ever asked yourself why aid was flowing into MS within a day of the storm?

Foreign policy is in the POTUS's prevue to make decisions and act, he has a lot of leeway there due to the laws of this country. But due to the laws of this country he is also limited to what he can do with FEMA and other relief actions. As for your relative not being able to contact the POTUS or his office, what average citizen can? There is a chain of command and the failure lies solely at the feet of the Mayor of NO and Governor of LA.

This has nothing to do with political party, this is 100% YOU blaming the wrong entity and advocating for the POTUS to break the law.
 
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Just wow.

First, Katrina was not the worst disaster this country has ever faced. It just has the distinction of being the worst MANAGED disaster (at the local New Orleans and state of LA levels). Have you ever asked yourself why aid was flowing into MS within a day of the storm?

Foreign policy is in the POTUS's prevue to make decisions and act, he has a lot of leeway there due to the laws of this country. But due to the laws of this country he is also limited to what he can do with FEMA and other relief actions. As for your relative not being able to contact the POTUS or his office, what average citizen can? There is a chain of command and the failure lies solely at the feet of the Mayor of NO and Governor of LA.

This has nothing to do with political party, this is 100% YOU blaming the wrong entity and advocating for the POTUS to break the law.

He did follow the chain of command up, when he couldnt get responses from the people who should have been acting he chased up the rabbits trail of government agencies. Along his chase he was told by the people he was talking to that the president COULD do something, and when he made contact with the POTUS office, he was basically told the president couldn't be bothered and to go **** himself after calling back several times. In your line of work, if your immediate superior isn't there, do you not take problems you can't handle to the next level and keep going until you get a resolution? That's what I do. If everybody but the principal/owner/CEO isn't there, you have to follow it up going through what channels you can to get it resolved, and if the CEO's office tells you to 'just deal with it yourself' blame can be placed on the CEO. (before someone spouts off I know you can't compare an business to a country but the analogy still stands).

And yes I know relief was fast in coming for the other states, part of why my family member is still pissed, but that doesn't excuse the failure in Louisanna.

The main point I was trying to make has been so derailed its actually kinda funny. Someone along the line got what I was saying. :hi:

and just being curious what would you consider the worst natural disaster? And please list how you are basing this, I can think of a few that took more lives, or caused more damage or covered a wider area, but I would like to hear yours. I am young so there has been plenty I am not aware of.
 
He did follow the chain of command up, when he couldnt get responses from the people who should have been acting he chased up the rabbits trail of government agencies. Along his chase he was told by the people he was talking to that the president COULD do something, and when he made contact with the POTUS office, he was basically told the president couldn't be bothered and to go **** himself after calling back several times. In your line of work, if your immediate superior isn't there, do you not take problems you can't handle to the next level and keep going until you get a resolution? That's what I do. If everybody but the principal/owner/CEO isn't there, you have to follow it up going through what channels you can to get it resolved, and if the CEO's office tells you to 'just deal with it yourself' blame can be placed on the CEO. (before someone spouts off I know you can't compare an business to a country but the analogy still stands).

And yes I know relief was fast in coming for the other states, part of why my family member is still pissed, but that doesn't excuse the failure in Louisanna.

The main point I was trying to make has been so derailed its actually kinda funny. Someone along the line got what I was saying. :hi:

and just being curious what would you consider the worst natural disaster? And please list how you are basing this, I can think of a few that took more lives, or caused more damage or covered a wider area, but I would like to hear yours. I am young so there has been plenty I am not aware of.

Just who is your relative? The Governor or Mayor? If not he would have no authority to request anything from the POTUS. The rest of your post is just whining drivel.

The other areas received Federal aid quickly because their state leadership REQUESTED it! Hence, managed the disaster better.

1906 San Francisco Earthquake
1900 Galveston Hurricane
1928 Okeechobee Hurricane
Just to name a few.
 
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if you see my OP I state anger at the mayor and governor too. And just to confuse your "you can only be a Republican or Democrat" mind, I consider myself a republican, I just know from people who were actually trying to get something done that the system failed them. Again my family member made calls (radio) to mayors office, who couldn't be reached, then the governor who also couldn't be reached. Eventually he barked up the line of command trying to get resources moving and was directed to the office of the President, after a day of spotty communications. And when he (my family member) finally got into contact with someone that could do something he was told the President couldn't be bothered. My family member still tears up with the frustration of being in nominal command of a situation where people were dying and suffering and he couldn't do anything because others wouldn't help out.

And yes to someone's question, I believe the President should have broken the law, declared a national emergency, Katrina hit more than Louisiana, and got the ball rolling. His "invasion" then would have been by the states own national guard, who would have arrived to conduct search and rescue, and provide medical aid, not arrived with tanks, A10 gunships, and JDAMs. Get off your party's nut sack and look at it objectively. You are getting all over Obama for not taking action on international issues but are saying Bush did no wrong with his inaction when it came to the worst natural disaster this country has faced.

"Hey this is Chief Joe Bob Beaudrieux from Crawfish Center, Louisana, calling President Bush for some help here, y'all."

I call shenanigans.

This is where he should have called and as far as he could have gotten:

Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness
7667 Independence Blvd.
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70806
(225) 925-7500
(225) 925-7501 FAX

Governor's Office of Homeland Security & Emergency Preparedness | State of Louisiana

Someone there would have spelled out the law to him if his own local parish OES hadn't already. If he had any emergency preparedness training at all prior to Katrina, and he should have, being the Chief and all, he would have known this as well. Calling the President, yeah, OK.

Sounds a lot like a Kanye West story. . .
 
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"Hey this is Chief Joe Bob Beaudrieux from Crawfish Center, Louisana, calling President Bush for some help here, y'all."

I call shenanigans.

This is where he should have called and as far as he could have gotten:

Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness
7667 Independence Blvd.
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70806
(225) 925-7500
(225) 925-7501 FAX

Governor's Office of Homeland Security & Emergency Preparedness | State of Louisiana

Someone there would have spelled out the law to him if his own local parish OES hadn't already. If he had any emergency preparedness training at all prior to Katrina, and he should have, being the Chief and all, he would have known this as well. Calling the President, yeah, OK.

Sounds a lot like a Kanye West story. . .

:blink: Dayum!
 
LouderVol, your history on Katrina is way off. Here are some facts:

1. The Governors of Louisiana, Missisissippi and Alabama all called out their National Guard units and had them positioned to support disaster relief operations prior to the Hurricane hitting land.

2. The Defense Coordinating Officers and staffs were activated and established in their operations centers prior to land fall.

3. There were thousands of pounds of disaster relief equipment and supplies positioned outside of the expected impact area to be moved in as soon as the danger passed.

4. Bush did declare a national emergency and did order FEMA to provide disaster relief based on the needs of the states.

The local, state and federal agencies involved were in fact in place to support the expected disaster and its aftermath. However, that wasn't the disaster they got. Instead they got a disaster that was exponentially greater then they expected. Not only was it larger than anticipated, but the storm stalled over the region far longer than anyone expected. That resulted in the following:

1. The breaching of the levies in New Orleans. They planned on the levies holding which would allow interior mobility to get buses and trucks around the city and to the Super Dome to facilitate the evacuation.

2. The flooding of the 9th Ward included the flooding of the National Guard Headquarters that was coordinating disaster relief. It was difficult for the National Guard to provide relief when they found themselves under water.

3. The extended storm and flooding disrupted the command and control within the city, especially the Mayor's office. There is also a huge issue that the Mayor of NO did not participate in any of the disaster relief training and didn't know what he was supposed to do. That is why you saw him on the news calling for support when he should have been on the phone or in his emergency operations center helping lead the relief efforts. It is also why one of the first flights in included a fire breathing Army LTG who Bush ordered to personally get things organized. (There was some discussion at the time that may have been illegal, but they did it anyway).

4. All the roads into the disaster area, especially around Mobile, were blocked, significantly delaying the arrival of the National Guard.

5. Thousands of people who should have evacuated prior to landfall decided to ride out the storm. Many of them made it to the Super Dome, but were stuck there when the buses couldn't get to them (either because of the flooding or incompetence of the Mayor). Many were spread at random throughout the city and no one had any clue who or how many there were. And, even though they decided to stay put, they then demanded rescue when the flooding started.

There were other huge mistakes that we learned lessons from (that were successfully implemented during later storms such as Hurricane Sandy):

1. Coordination of evacuations that cross multiple state borders and the need to change interstates highways and state highways to all lanes going outbound.

2. A new perspective on the way you organize shelters. In almost all other disasters the individuals who went into relief shelters pitched in to help run the shelter as much as they were able. People were expected to help set up cots, serve food and so forth. No one expected the level of lawlessness, including murder, rapes, abuse and theft, that occured in the Super Dome. No one expected the people would simply sit and wait for someone to come along and tell them what to do. We now know that a percentage of our population will need a huge amount of supervision and guidance in a disaster that they didn't need previously and organize accordingly.

3. New rules on ordering evacuations and how to inform people what will happen if they decide to stay put.

4. New standards for emergency operations centers, including a review of their locations to make sure they don't get inundated by the disaster.

5. New rules for the evacuation of hospitals, retirement homes and any one else with mobility impaired people, to ensure the horrors that happened in N.O. aren't repeated.


In the end, you can shout "Bush should have _________" all day long. But the fact is, he did what he was supposed to do, as did the various federal and state agencies. But it was a 1000 year storm that caused widespread and unexpected damages.

Many will say he should have landed in NO and walked the ground for himself. Having been on the ground when a POTUS comes for a visit, I would disagree. The entourage the POTUS brings would have been a circus in the middle of all that chaos. He would have taken resources (time, attention, security etc) away from the relief operations. So I think flying over and seeing the disaster was appropriate. I also think the plan was executed as best as possible given the circumstances.

(PS if you need to know how I might know some of this, I was part of the disaster relief for the SF earthquake in 89, Hurricane Andrew (93?) and was assigned to the Defense Coordinating Office in Hawaii at the time of Katrina. We stood up and tracked the situation because we expected to be activated and flown in to assist but were stood down before deploying).
 
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Grab your hats boys and girls!
2501240-4874366061-13325.jpg
 
Why are people picking on W? According to W He had Brownie on the ground and was doing a good job during the aftermath of Katrina.
 
Louder, why was your family still in NO when Katrina made landfall?

I have wondered that till I was sick...
( why anyone was still there).

The ones we got here were taken to Fort Chaffee and lived on base.

True story:

They filled up 2 roll off dumpsters with illegal weapons. ( knives and guns).
 
LouderVol, your history on Katrina is way off. Here are some facts:

1. The Governors of Louisiana, Missisissippi and Alabama all called out their National Guard units and had them positioned to support disaster relief operations prior to the Hurricane hitting land.

2. The Defense Coordinating Officers and staffs were activated and established in their operations centers prior to land fall.

3. There were thousands of pounds of disaster relief equipment and supplies positioned outside of the expected impact area to be moved in as soon as the danger passed.

4. Bush did declare a national emergency and did order FEMA to provide disaster relief based on the needs of the states.

The local, state and federal agencies involved were in fact in place to support the expected disaster and its aftermath. However, that wasn't the disaster they got. Instead they got a disaster that was exponentially greater then they expected. Not only was it larger than anticipated, but the storm stalled over the region far longer than anyone expected. That resulted in the following:

1. The breaching of the levies in New Orleans. They planned on the levies holding which would allow interior mobility to get buses and trucks around the city and to the Super Dome to facilitate the evacuation.

2. The flooding of the 9th Ward included the flooding of the National Guard Headquarters that was coordinating disaster relief. It was difficult for the National Guard to provide relief when they found themselves under water.

3. The extended storm and flooding disrupted the command and control within the city, especially the Mayor's office. There is also a huge issue that the Mayor of NO did not participate in any of the disaster relief training and didn't know what he was supposed to do. That is why you saw him on the news calling for support when he should have been on the phone or in his emergency operations center helping lead the relief efforts. It is also why one of the first flights in included a fire breathing Army LTG who Bush ordered to personally get things organized. (There was some discussion at the time that may have been illegal, but they did it anyway).

4. All the roads into the disaster area, especially around Mobile, were blocked, significantly delaying the arrival of the National Guard.

5. Thousands of people who should have evacuated prior to landfall decided to ride out the storm. Many of them made it to the Super Dome, but were stuck there when the buses couldn't get to them (either because of the flooding or incompetence of the Mayor). Many were spread at random throughout the city and no one had any clue who or how many there were. And, even though they decided to stay put, they then demanded rescue when the flooding started.

There were other huge mistakes that we learned lessons from (that were successfully implemented during later storms such as Hurricane Sandy):

1. Coordination of evacuations that cross multiple state borders and the need to change interstates highways and state highways to all lanes going outbound.

2. A new perspective on the way you organize shelters. In almost all other disasters the individuals who went into relief shelters pitched in to help run the shelter as much as they were able. People were expected to help set up cots, serve food and so forth. No one expected the level of lawlessness, including murder, rapes, abuse and theft, that occured in the Super Dome. No one expected the people would simply sit and wait for someone to come along and tell them what to do. We now know that a percentage of our population will need a huge amount of supervision and guidance in a disaster that they didn't need previously and organize accordingly.

3. New rules on ordering evacuations and how to inform people what will happen if they decide to stay put.

4. New standards for emergency operations centers, including a review of their locations to make sure they don't get inundated by the disaster.

5. New rules for the evacuation of hospitals, retirement homes and any one else with mobility impaired people, to ensure the horrors that happened in N.O. aren't repeated.


In the end, you can shout "Bush should have _________" all day long. But the fact is, he did what he was supposed to do, as did the various federal and state agencies. But it was a 1000 year storm that caused widespread and unexpected damages.

Many will say he should have landed in NO and walked the ground for himself. Having been on the ground when a POTUS comes for a visit, I would disagree. The entourage the POTUS brings would have been a circus in the middle of all that chaos. He would have taken resources (time, attention, security etc) away from the relief operations. So I think flying over and seeing the disaster was appropriate. I also think the plan was executed as best as possible given the circumstances.

(PS if you need to know how I might know some of this, I was part of the disaster relief for the SF earthquake in 89, Hurricane Andrew (93?) and was assigned to the Defense Coordinating Office in Hawaii at the time of Katrina. We stood up and tracked the situation because we expected to be activated and flown in to assist but were stood down before deploying).

Bottom line...... Don't build a city 20 ft below sea level in a swamp 10 miles from the ocean. If you do and FEMA tells you to leave because your ass is getting ready to get washed into the ocean, freaking leave.
 
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Louder, why was your family still in NO when Katrina made landfall?

My great aunt was 88* at the time and refused to leave, she is still kicking, and her son worked for the police and was part of the task force left to help those who couldn't/wouldn't leave (his mom)


*edit
 
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My great aunt was 90 at the time and refused to leave, she is still kicking, and her son worked for the police and was part of the task force left to help those who couldn't/wouldn't leave (his mom)

So it's Bush's fault your great aunt chose not to leave when told to do so?
 
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no its her fault, not that a storm could have killed her. I wasn't blaming bush for the people left behind, or the storm itself.
 

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