Historians rank top Presidents on Leadership

[BigPapaVol]

Saying that MacArthur was a prima donna wasn't a criticism. Every effective leader is one to some degree.

MacArthur was also smart enough to understand that he was fighting his war for the TV and American audiences. That wasn't something that Patton bothered with.

Calling MacArthur underrated doesn't make that much sense to me. He was SAC Japan and won. He personally rewrote the Japanese constitution (and is a legend there) and pulled off a coup at Inchon, even while handcuffed by a meddling administration. He should have backed down in the end, but his function was to advise his commander. The route he chose to do it was a poor one and he would tell you today that it was a bullheaded mistake. Do recall that he watched as the politicians botched the fruits of our victory in Europe not too many years prior.

 

[gsvol]

FDR was liberal whose programs we are STILL paying for.

Sorry SOB hung Adm. Husband E. Kimmel out to dry.

Kimmel and Short were finally exonerated.

Congress was specific in its finding against the 1941 White House: Kimmel and Short were cut off from the intelligence pipeline that located Japanese forces advancing on Hawaii. Then, after the successful Japanese raid, both commanders were relieved of their commands, blamed for failing to ward off the attack, and demoted in rank.

I quoted another writer yesterday who ended with "FDR betrayed everyone who ever trusted him."

Jefferson & TR were also better than FDR, fwiw.

I agree and include Old Hickory on that list, even Monroe and several others.

I wonder what would have happened it McKinley had not been assassinated.

My biggest gripe against TR was he pulled a Ross Perot and helped that scumbag Woodrow Wilson in office.

MacArthur was the most overrated general in history. He wanted to be a damn dictator.

Your assessments of FDR and Truman are both off base. According to historians more knowledgeable than both of us. Your assessment of Woodrow Wilson is also incorrect.

I knew a couple of guys who were closely associated with MacArthur in the army during WWII, he wasn't that bad of a guy in real life. Another guy who had high level intelligence access and he gave Mac high grades for being a straight shooter. Did you read his farewell speech to congress after his retirement??? When I went to hear him speak I figured he would low rate Truman, the way the media was going on but he said not one word bad about Harry in the whole speech.

With him it wasn't about personality, it was about principle and I think he was more right than Truman.

As for the Korean war and Mac's dismissal, I'm glad he did what he did, I just wish more of our top military guys would have stood up to Washington during the Vietnam conflict, our policies were stupid if we had any desire to win and you can blame part of Vietnam on Woodrow Wilson who spurned advances from Ho Chi Mihn for an alliance at the end of WWI, his negotiation of a peace at the end of WWI was even worse than FDR's treaties at the end of WWII, and that's going some.

Wilson is a pure dirtbag for getting central banking back in and that led directly to and was the cause of the great depression. Wilson ran on a strictly 'I will keep us out of the European war' just like FDR and then conspired to get us in, just like FDR.

Generals are dictators... their word is law in the military, so why wouldn't that carry over into politics?

Didn't happen with Eisenhower.

Actually their word isn't necessarily law, we have the UCMJ which is a very fine legal document and code of conduct.

He had one hero in his life. Gen. George S. Patton. He was in N. Africa with Patton, and marched across Europe with him, liberating a few million people along the way. Rome and Palermo to mention a couple of cities.

If Patton had walked in the room when my Dad was on his death bed and said, "Get up. We're going into Hell after Satan." The old man would have reached for his rifle.

Too bad Patten ended up assassinated.

There are only two kinds of officers, those you would gladly die for and those you would kill if you could get a decent shot at them.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Patton had an equal number of soldiers who absolutely hated him for much of what made him great.

 

[SavageOrangeJug]

So the whole MacAurthur, Patton, Wilson, Truman, FDR squabble is about your dad?

:blink:

Not at all. I was merely illustrating the difference in generals. You wouldn't have caught MacArthur within 100 miles of live ammo. Especially if it was being fired.

The whole FDR thing is because your parents said so?

 

[BigPapaVol]

Not at all. I was merely illustrating the difference in generals. You wouldn't have caught MacArthur within 100 miles of live ammo. Especially if it was being fired.

The whole FDR thing is because your parents said so?

I think you have a different picture of MacArthur than reality. Don't forget the guy started as a lieutenant in 1903. He played for BlackJack in WWI, then readied for WWII.

In the end, losing a four bullet general to a stray round because of his silly bravado is absolutely stupid. I'm a fan of both, but to pretend that Patton was making wise choices for a corps commander doesn't jibe with the facts.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Not at all. I was merely illustrating the difference in generals. You wouldn't have caught MacArthur within 100 miles of live ammo. Especially if it was being fired.

The whole FDR thing is because your parents said so?

Nope, I searched for myself but I hated the man with every fiber of my body.

I simply found out that I was wrong on parts of his presidency.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I think you have a different picture of MacArthur than reality. Don't forget the guy started as a lieutenant in 1903. He played for BlackJack in WWI, then readied for WWII.

In the end, losing a four bullet general to a stray round because of his silly bravado is absolutely stupid. I'm a fan of both, but to pretend that Patton was making wise choices for a corps commander doesn't jibe with the facts.

*Coughs*

Going after his son in law in prison camp...

 

[SavageOrangeJug]

I think you have a different picture of MacArthur than reality. Don't forget the guy started as a lieutenant in 1903. He played for BlackJack in WWI, then readied for WWII.

In the end, losing a four bullet general to a stray round because of his silly bravado is absolutely stupid. I'm a fan of both, but to pretend that Patton was making wise choices for a corps commander doesn't jibe with the facts.

It wasn't silly bravado. Patton asked the impossible from his men. He got it. They respected him like no other. His acts were to inspire his troops. They worked.

No one has before or since moved and entire army (17 divisions) as fast as Patton moved his when needed.

 

[Chemvol]

MacArthur was also smart enough to understand that he was fighting his war for the TV and American audiences. That wasn't something that Patton bothered with.

Agreed. MacArthur knew the image of him "returning" to the Philippines would play well with the folks back home.

Calling MacArthur underrated doesn't make that much sense to me. He was SAC Japan and won. He personally rewrote the Japanese constitution (and is a legend there) and pulled off a coup at Inchon, even while handcuffed by a meddling administration. He should have backed down in the end, but his function was to advise his commander. The route he chose to do it was a poor one and he would tell you today that it was a bullheaded mistake. Do recall that he watched as the politicians botched the fruits of our victory in Europe not too many years prior.

+1

I don't understand all this hate for DM either.

 

[BigPapaVol]

It wasn't silly bravado. Patton asked the impossible from his men. He got it. They respected him like no other. His acts were to inspire his troops. They worked.

No one has before or since moved and entire army (17 divisions) as fast as Patton moved his when needed.

I don't know much Patton or military history, but seems to me you've watched the movie and heard many of the tales if soldiers as they have been exaggerated over time.

I think Patton was a stud of the first order, but he was limited in scope for good reasons and he legend seems to have outgrown his deeds.
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[gsvol]

1.) Do you blame him? How many takes did it take Ike meeting the paratroopers?

2.) No, I have plenty of historians/history books who agree with me.

:hi:

One thing I would like to ask you, since you think so highly of Clinton and so little of Wilson, what do you think of Clinton's statement that Woodrow Wilson was America's greatest president??

MacArthur was also smart enough to understand that he was fighting his war for the TV and American audiences. That wasn't something that Patton bothered with.

Calling MacArthur underrated doesn't make that much sense to me. He was SAC Japan and won. He personally rewrote the Japanese constitution (and is a legend there) and pulled off a coup at Inchon, even while handcuffed by a meddling administration. He should have backed down in the end, but his function was to advise his commander. The route he chose to do it was a poor one and he would tell you today that it was a bullheaded mistake. Do recall that he watched as the politicians botched the fruits of our victory in Europe not too many years prior.

There were plenty of films and photos made for the purpose of keeping up moral, both for civilians and those under arms.

Patton certainly had his share of press.

Landing at Sicily.

I disagree that Mac would say he made a bull headed mistake, I think he refused to go on the the US plan which was really the UN plan and he would rather resign than try to carry out that plan.

I could be wrong but I have never ever heard of any time he ever expressed that sort of thought.

 

[BigPapaVol]

One thing I would like to ask you, since you think so highly of Clinton and so little of Wilson, what do you think of Clinton's statement that Woodrow Wilson was America's greatest president??



There were plenty of films and photos made for the purpose of keeping up moral, both for civilians and those under arms.

Patton certainly had his share of press.

Landing at Sicily.

I disagree that Mac would say he made a bull headed mistake, I think he refused to go on the the US plan which was really the UN plan and he would rather resign than try to carry out that plan.

I could be wrong but I have never ever heard of any time he ever expressed that sort of thought.

MacArthurs 1963 trip back to West Point to accept the Thayer Award was telling.
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[OrangeEmpire]

One thing I would like to ask you, since you think so highly of Clinton and so little of Wilson, what do you think of Clinton's statement that Woodrow Wilson was America's greatest president??



There were plenty of films and photos made for the purpose of keeping up moral, both for civilians and those under arms.

Patton certainly had his share of press.

Landing at Sicily.

I disagree that Mac would say he made a bull headed mistake, I think he refused to go on the the US plan which was really the UN plan and he would rather resign than try to carry out that plan.

I could be wrong but I have never ever heard of any time he ever expressed that sort of thought.

I hold Clinton in high regard?

I merely stated he is better than W, Gore, Kerry, McCain or Obama.

 

[gsvol]

MacArthurs 1963 trip back to West Point to accept the Thayer Award was telling.
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Actually '62.

And excerpt from his acceptance speech.

Let civilian voices argue the merits or demerits of our processes of government: whether our strength is being sapped by deficit financing indulged in too long, by federal paternalism grown too mighty, by power groups grown too arrogant, by politics grown too corrupt, by crime grown too rampant, by morals grown too low, by taxes grown too high, by extremists grown too violent; whether our personal liberties are as firm and complete as they should be; these great national problems are not for your professional participation or military solution.

I would never say anything bad about MacArthur.

Another guy who ought to be mentioned in this discussion would be America's last five star general.

Not only was he Eisenhower's right hand man, with exceptional results in North Africa and in Europe, he knew how to use the bold Patten to best advantage but Bradley's work after the war on behalf of veterans while revamping the VA was great, he also was a recipient of the Thayer Award.

Having grown up poor, he reached great heights and always remained humble, he once invited WWI hero Alvin C. York to visit a training facility and when York said most of his shooting in battle was done at close range, Omar adding another section of training to reflect that aspect of combat.

 

[gsvol]

I hold Clinton in high regard?

I merely stated he is better than W, Gore, Kerry, McCain or Obama.

Of that group I'd pick W as the best, Clinton as the worst, unless of course Obama can surpass Clinton is screw up ability.

 

[WA_Vol]

Of that group I'd pick W as the best, Clinton as the worst, unless of course Obama can surpass Clinton is screw up ability.

Your opinion of a President is based on if they are a Republican or a Democrat. You criticized FDR for spending and budget deficits, yet you say W was a better President then Clinton.

W doubled the national debt while Clinton has a record budget surplus of 230 million in 2000 alone. Your bias is getting indefenseable at this point.

 

[WA_Vol]

On MacArthur:

On the day of the attack on Pearl Harbor MacArthur was Allied commander in the Philippines. He had over eight hours warning of a possible Japanese attack on the Philippines, and express orders from Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall to commence operations.[13] “For all his posturing as an expert on Far Eastern affairs, he grossly underestimated the capabilities of the Japanese”.[14]

MacArthur's failure to take defensive or offensive action resulted in Japanese air superiority over the Philippines—MacArthur's inaction during the critical hours has been given as the reason for "an enormity of loss no less than that in Hawaii".[15] A misplaced reliance by MacArthur on his air commander of only two months, General Lewis H. Brereton, has been used as an excuse by his defenders.

1. ^ Connaughton, Richard. Douglas MacArthur and Defeat in the Philippines
2. ^ Bartsch, December 9, 1941, p. 423

 

[MG1968]

Your opinion of a President is based on if they are a Republican or a Democrat. You criticized FDR for spending and budget deficits, yet you say W was a better President then Clinton.

W doubled the national debt while Clinton has a record budget surplus of 230 million in 2000 alone. Your bias is getting indefenseable at this point.

Clinton's budget surpluses are illusions because they don't take into account the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicaid.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Clinton's budget surpluses are illusions because they don't take into account the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicaid.

They also only existed because of a huge Tech bubble and a R congress.
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[SavageOrangeJug]

I don't know much Patton or military history, but seems to me you've watched the movie and heard many of the tales if soldiers as they have been exaggerated over time.

I think Patton was a stud of the first order, but he was limited in scope for good reasons and he legend seems to have outgrown his deeds.
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No, my Dad lived it. He was not given to exaggeration or BS.

 

[BigPapaVol]

No, my Dad lived it. He was not given to exaggeration or BS.

How much time did he spend with the General, in person?
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[SavageOrangeJug]

How much time did he spend with the General, in person?
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He spent enough time under his command to know what kind of man he was. One statement he made about Patton that I will nevr forget. "We weren't just pawns in the game to him. We were his men."

You have admitted you know very little about Patton, or military history. Why continue trying to be an A-hole?

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

"War isnt about dying for your country, its about making the other sorry SOB die for his"
-Patton

 

[BigPapaVol]

He spent enough time under his command to know what kind of man he was. One statement he made about Patton that I will nevr forget. "We weren't just pawns in the game to him. We were his men."

You have admitted you know very little about Patton, or military history. Why continue trying to be an A-hole?

Because I know one helluva lot of military history, especially about generals from West Point. I also have family who served under Patton. You aren't magically unique.
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[SavageOrangeJug]

Because I know one helluva lot of military history, especially about generals from West Point. I also have family who served under Patton. You aren't magically unique.
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Never said I was.