Expectations after 4 years

[BeardedVol]

So 4-0 instead of 2-2 like this past season? Is he really capable of that? All four of those teams will be more competitive this year than last year. Butch always loses a game or two that he isn't supposed to. Not a question of if, but when.

He's never beaten Will Muschamp, and until he does, expecting a win against USCe is setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[Iam4utalways]

If he goes 4-4 in the SEC again, I really don't see the point of playing this out any longer.

So the expectations are:

Florida, Georgia, LSU, Bama - 0-4 is unacceptable, 1-3 is borderline, 2-2 is acceptable (no hot seat), 3 or more should get us to Atlanta (Butch gets a raise)

Foghorn Leghorn, Candy, KY, Mizzou - no acceptable losses

Typical year. Our season comes down to 4 games. 2015 we went 1-3 with no unacceptable losses. 2016 we went 2-2 and then 2 unacceptable losses.

It will never be about the wins, it's always the losses. Either we weren't ready or bungled our chance of winning. What matterd, it's got to stop.

121 is a mature team, expect a better performance from this grown up Team. They have been thru a lot and haven't blinked once.

It's about to get nasty on The Hill. Welcome to the Rock......Rock.

Release the Beast!

 

[Iam4utalways]

He's never beaten Will Muschamp, and until he does, expecting a win against USCe is setting yourself up for disappointment.

He never beat Florida til he did.

I've got to see a team beat 121 before I will believe it can happen. Y'all act like 121 is a bunch of scrubs, well they aren't.

#1 duel threat QB in JG. Two line backers that each of them were the #1 LB from their state.

121 will have some bite to go along with their bark.

Release the Beast!

 

[BeardedVol]

He never beat Florida til he did.

Not while Will Muschamp was there.

I've got to see a team beat 121 before I will believe it can happen. Y'all act like 121 is a bunch of scrubs, well they aren't.

Where in my post did I say that they are scrubs?

#1 duel threat QB in JG. Two line backers that each of them were the #1 LB from their state.

Talent has not really been the issue, at least not in the last two seasons. It's been coaching and player development that have held us back. Hopefully, he new coaching hires will change that situation, but several of those hires are questionable at best, and Butch is still the HBC.

121 will have some bite to go along with their bark.

Maybe.

 

[Rifleman]

So 4-0 instead of 2-2 like this past season? Is he really capable of that? All four of those teams will be more competitive this year than last year. Butch always loses a game or two that he isn't supposed to. Not a question of if, but when.

If we can establish line of scrimmage play at a level which matches the potential of our OL and DL talent, then we will destroy the bottom half of the SEC Least.

If we cannot do that in year 5, then we thank Butch for helping us out of the ditch Dooley and Hamilton drove us into, pay him what we owe him, and release him to go coach in the Sun Belt or AAC.

I hope he gets it done this year, though, for his sake and for my poor liver.

 

[Iam4utalways]

Not while Will Muschamp was there.



Where in my post did I say that they are scrubs?




Talent has not really been the issue, at least not in the last two seasons. It's been coaching and player development that have held us back. Hopefully, he new coaching hires will change that situation, but several of those hires are questionable at best, and Butch is still the HBC.




Maybe.

Are you suggesting that Muschamp Vs. CBJ is like Fulmer Vs Spurier?

That's an insult to Spurier( so in fine with it). Like it or not Muschamp has been very opportunistic against CBJ. It won't last forever.

Your post led me to believe we should expect to lose.

Quality depth has not been our friend.

 

[Titan05]

If we can establish line of scrimmage play at a level which matches the potential of our OL and DL talent, then we will destroy the bottom half of the SEC Least.

If we cannot do that in year 5, then we thank Butch for helping us out of the ditch Dooley and Hamilton drove us into, pay him what we owe him, and release him to go coach in the Sun Belt or AAC.

I hope he gets it done this year, though, for his sake and for my poor liver.

Well said.

 

[BeardedVol]

Are you suggesting that Muschamp Vs. CBJ is like Fulmer Vs Spurier?

That's an insult to Spurier( so in fine with it). Like it or not Muschamp has been very opportunistic against CBJ. It won't last forever.

Your post led me to believe we should expect to lose.

Quality depth has not been our friend.

How many times have you posted a list of your "gimme" games of 2017 with USCe listed, in spite of the fact that Will Muschamp has beaten CBJ at two different schools and with inferior talent? I wouldn't call it a 'definite loss', but it sure as hell isn't a 'gimme', and it never has been under CBJ regardless of who was coaching them.

Yet, we should just expect that Butch Jones is going to figure out how to finally 'release the beast'? We've seen coaching changes before under Jones, not on the scale that we've seen in 2017, but what actual difference has it made so far on Saturdays? I'll reserve judgement until the season starts, but in CBJ's time at UT I've learned to temper my expectations.

 

[Tin Man]

I think Freak needs to create a forum for you and folks like you called "Safe space". That way you won't have to deal with unpleasant facts that offend your sensibilities and get you all upset and mad at people who just keep confronting you with things you don't want to face.

So this is what it has come to, belligerent naysaying fans claim sole possession of "the facts" and post slights in reply to anyone who dares to contradict their ominous point of view. Pages later, the same thing is plastered all over the thread - post after post of "fans" competing on just how darkly they may present the prospects of Tennessee football and how thoroughly they can trash the coaching staff, administrators, and other fans who do not march lock step in the shadow of their pronouncements.

Between those relishing the darkness in which their fandom in mired and those these lost souls characterize as "sunshine pumpers," we alumni tempered by decades of real life know the truth of fandom and take a longer view.

Fling your barbs, you Denethors and King Lears. "Owning" the football threads of VolNation provides no real sustenance.

 

[Iam4utalways]

How many times have you posted a list of your "gimme" games of 2017 with USCe listed, in spite of the fact that Will Muschamp has beaten CBJ at two different schools and with inferior talent? I wouldn't call it a 'definite loss', but it sure as hell isn't a 'gimme', and it never has been under CBJ regardless of who was coaching them.

Yet, we should just expect that Butch Jones is going to figure out how to finally 'release the beast'? We've seen coaching changes before under Jones, not on the scale that we've seen in 2017, but what actual difference has it made so far on Saturdays? I'll reserve judgement until the season starts, but in CBJ's time at UT I've learned to temper my expectations.

The streak will end and CBJ has been a year or a two behind the curve. He is due a win if solely based off how bad of a coach Muschamp truely is.

Sure CBJ could get it right, there's always that chance, but the odds are just as likely that Muschamp will let one slip away(similar to Butter teeth down in the swamp), then the floodgates will open and we will treat his teams like Ky, beacause he an inferior coach and will systematically bring the team he coaches down.

Rock is in charge of....

Release the Beast!

 

[BeardedVol]

So this is what it has come to, belligerent naysaying fans claim sole possession of "the facts"...

So would you say that you are using alternative facts to support your position?:unsure:

 

[jakez4ut]

So would you say that you are using alternative facts to support your position?:unsure:

not going to speak for him, but i would say yeah.

i don't like Butch, and i would have fired him already.

but the most interesting thing about this topic is that there is truth to be found on both sides.

it's why it seems never ending. there are facts on both sides.

fact: we're a lot better today than we were the day Butch Jones took over.

fact: we did just complete our 1st 3 bowl game win streak since the early/mid 90's.

fact: we are going to have up to 6 players drafted in the NFL this season, highest in a very long time.

fact: 3 eight plus win seasons in a row since, the early 2000's iirc.

fact: overall talent has improved.

fact: he has made significant changes to his staff to help us get better.

fact: he beat FL and GA in the same season.

fact: he currently has a winning streak against GA.

fact: he does make very questionable game day decisions, in key moments.

fact: he's a terrible communicator to fans and media.

fact: he's .500 against vandy.

fact: he's .000 against Will Muschamp.

fact: he's only won 1 game that he should have lost in 4 years at TN.

fact: he's lost at least 4 games he should have won.

fact: attrition rates are higher than average vs. SEC competition.

fact: he did say "we don't talk about winning the East".:blink:

fact: we lost the East by a full game after beating both GA and FL.

fact: his overall SEC record just isn't good.

i'm sure there's others, good and bad, that could be added. but in the end, it's all true. just depends how much weight you give each on your scale to determine your overall opinion of him.

but to ignore either set of facts, well, isn't fair, either way, if you're really evaluating.

 

[BeecherVol]

Rabbits are fine. They breed like Negavols.

Wouldn't know.:birgits_giggle:

 

[BeardedVol]

fact: we did just complete our 1st 3 bowl game win streak since the early/mid 90's.

fact: he has made significant changes to his staff to help us get better.
.

Most of the items that you have listed don't get argued as to whether they are facts or not, but rather how significant they are as a metric for judging CBJ as a coach.

No one doubts the fact that we've gone to three bowls in a row, what they doubt, is whether or not that is significant at all in 2016. In 1995 there were only 18 bowl games, getting to one 3 years in a row, was relatively impressive, now that there are 40, not so much.

Same for upgrading his staff. Yes, it's true that some of the coaching staff hires are upgrades over their predecessors, but not all of them are proven upgrades, and whether or not they will "help us get better", is unknown at the moment.

 

[Behr]

They're checking thier fact sheets, Google, Bing, Uncle Bob.......they'll be back.

 

[jakez4ut]

Most of the items that you have listed don't get argued as to whether they are facts or not, but rather how significant they are as a metric for judging CBJ as a coach.

No one doubts the fact that we've gone to three bowls in a row, what they doubt, is whether or not that is significant at all in 2016. In 1995 there were only 18 bowl games, getting to one 3 years in a row, was relatively impressive, now that there are 40, not so much.

Same for upgrading his staff. Yes, it's true that some of the coaching staff hires are upgrades over their predecessors, but not all of them are proven upgrades, and whether or not they will "help us get better", is unknown at the moment.

just responding to your point of "alternative facts", and as i said at the end of the post, how much weight you place on any of these facts, or what context you choose to view them, will pretty much dictate what your opinion is going to be.

but yes, i agree, to argue whether or not any of it is factual, is fruitless at best.:thumbsup:

 

[UTRavens]

So this is what it has come to, belligerent naysaying fans claim sole possession of "the facts" and post slights in reply to anyone who dares to contradict their ominous point of view. Pages later, the same thing is plastered all over the thread - post after post of "fans" competing on just how darkly they may present the prospects of Tennessee football and how thoroughly they can trash the coaching staff, administrators, and other fans who do not march lock step in the shadow of their pronouncements.

Between those relishing the darkness in which their fandom in mired and those these lost souls characterize as "sunshine pumpers," we alumni tempered by decades of real life know the truth of fandom and take a longer view.

Fling your barbs, you Denethors and King Lears. "Owning" the football threads of VolNation provides no real sustenance.

It just shows for some people that sports fandom isn't about the team, it's about themselves. They get more joy out of being "right" than they do out of their team winning, so whether they realize it or not they end up reveling in the misfortune of their so-called favorite football team. It gives them an excuse to feel superior to others.

 

[81Orange]

Like most went Butch was hired I wanted a splash hire that could recruit. With the splash i hoped we could win the sec in 5 years. I was surprised when Butch pulled in Top ten classes. With these top classes I was back to Sec in 5. But then bad luck hit with title9 and then the injuries. Add to that best staff in America couldn't coach and a reset was in order.
From here forward I expect coaching to improve this year. Recruiting to improve for 2018. We then beat out GA. for east champions. We beat Bama in the SECCG in 2019 or 2020 and are in the playoff.

Our top ten 2018 class of recruits needs a year or two to develop before we make the playoffs.

I see GA and TN as the best teams in the east going forward (coming 3-4 years). In the west Bama, LSU. If Bama falters LSU, Ga and TN will pull players quickly.

If our new coaches don't develop players this year we will be looking for a new HC, because recruiting will never recover under Butch.

 

[dan4vols]

What were your realistic expectations for Butch Jones through 4 years when he was hired?

Also if Butch was fired today what would be your realistic expectations for the new coach after 4 years?

To be truly competitive with the Gators and Bulldogs to win the East. Tennessee with its talent resources and facilities should realistically win the east 35% of the seasons. And win the SEC once to twice in a decade.

My answer to the second part of your question is, the same for the new coach as it was with CBJ. However in the event CBJ vacates for whatever reasons, the university powers that be should take a cold hard look at what the UTK expectations are and what they're honestly prepared to do to meet those expectations. Hopefully those expectations are National titles, top 5 finishes, SEC titles. So when the university leadership gets serious about winning consistently in Knoxville by getting a top five coach and staff then we can talk about outright SEC titles and more. And before it's started I like Butch, I think he's a good top 30 coach, he's been here when not many wanted the job and has improved across the board.

 

[Fatman Photos]

And win the SEC once to twice in a decade.

Tennessee has only won the SEC more than once only 5 times since 1930.

30's - 2 times
40's - 2 times
50's - 2 times
80's - 2 times
90's - 3 times

 

[Tin Man]

Fact: Whatever you think of him, Butch Jones is under contract until 2020.
Fact: Contract buyouts are paid with real money.
Fact: Finances influence University decisions. If they don't for you, good luck with your life.
Fact: Beverly J. Davenport is UT's new Chancellor.
Fact: John Currie is UT's new Director of Athletics.
Fact: The above will make future hiring/firing decisions.

Tempering one's perspective with acceptance of these facts will help you assess the likelihood and timing of future actions you wish would occur. Keep in mind that your wishes may not come true, even if you did make them on the third star to the right.

 

[terrypedigo]

So we're just going to file every win that wasn't a total curb stomp under the "should have lost" category?

7 and 5 this year take it or it could very easy be 5 and 7.

 

[Tin Man]

Tennessee has only won the SEC more than once only 5 times since 1930.

30's - 2 times
40's - 2 times
50's - 2 times
80's - 2 times
90's - 3 times

Will the BeardedVol consider the above "an inconvenient truth?"

 

[terrypedigo]

Tennessee has only won the SEC more than once only 5 times since 1930.

30's - 2 times
40's - 2 times
50's - 2 times
80's - 2 times
90's - 3 times

We are not a elite team anymore around here 9 wins is a very good season well that what the coach said.:thud:

 

[Iam4utalways]

Fact: Whatever you think of him, Butch Jones is under contract until 2020.
Fact: Contract buyouts are paid with real money.
Fact: Finances influence University decisions. If they don't for you, good luck with your life.
Fact: Beverly J. Davenport is UT's new Chancellor.
Fact: John Currie is UT's new Director of Athletics.
Fact: The above will make future hiring/firing decisions.

Tempering one's perspective with acceptance of these facts will help you assess the likelihood and timing of future actions you wish would occur. Keep in mind that your wishes may not come true, even if you did make them on the third star to the right.

Currie will be announcing Haslam's decisions.