Cuba in Angola

[tvolsfan]

Mandela may have oppsed a crap system but it was far far superior to the system which replaced it.

No, it's not.

And Mandela isn't evil like a terrorist, and anyone can see that now. He just wasn't for the oppression of 90% of the population. I'm not sure what you think should have been done, anyways. He tried nonviolence and it obviously wouldn't work.

 

[VOLatile]

Yet you support Mandela who was a communist??

Ironic.

You don't come close to supporting communism but you support a communist.

Because I support one person that you call a communist makes me a communist? Rational.

 

[utgibbs]

The next time the Vols play in the Orange bowl I suggest you and I attend, after the game we can go over to little Havana and you can sell your propaganda there, no doubt I'll have a lonely trip home.







Don't let your mind stay boggled for long, what he says is widespread to say the least.

American media pretty well advances that narative, it is widespread in academia and among the young in America.

Many parts of the world buy that narative.

I would say presidents Carter, Clinton and Obama would buy that, remember Obama worked tirelessly in college to organize protests and put pressure on Universities and corporations to not invest in South Africa in order to bring down the government and replace it with a communist inspired one.

Presidential candidates Gore and Kerry would agree with the narative and McLame would give only a milketoast weak rebuttal.

Although congress might not buy that narative you would be hard put find many who would speak forcefully against it.

The following article explains what happened and is happening quite well:

South Africa Apartheid Defined by Amercian Apartheid



Actually this describes current events in America, although the means and devises may be different the goals are practically identical.

You mean the terrorist organizations formerly supported by Jorge Mas Canosa in Little Havana? Like the terrorist on trial in El Paso right now? Are you giving materiel support to Omega 7, gsvol? Those terrorists in Little Havana tried to blow up Madison Square Garden. Colleagues of Mas Canosa helped Michael Townsley assassinate an American citizen, Ronnie Moffit, on Embassy Row.

Are you freakin' serious?

 

[gasguy98]

Oh, I know a lot of Cubans. And I know about 15% of the population will always be against the Revolution. That's not an insignificant fraction of the population.

But it is a superminority.

The fact is 1000s of counter-revolutionaries in the Escambray could not succeed where 12 Fidelists in the Sierra Maestra could. I certainly don't discount the stories of your friends, but certainly they aren't in the majority.

I don't know whether to feel sorry for you or fear you.
Your lack of understanding how communism proliferates and survives is definately scarry.
For every friend like Juan (the guy that got away) there are 100 that end up in prison. They have food rationing, they carry refrigerators (refurbished 1960's models) on bicycles and in wagons. They live without hope, they are totally and completely oppressed. They have been subject to constant Orwellian style propaganda for the last 50 years. They instinctly know that things are bad for them but they think things are worse in the USA. Why? because we work hard.
Why do you think to this day boatloads of starving refugees show up off the coast of Miami? These people risk their lives (and often do die) for a chance at freedom.
I suggest you learn more about how the seeds of discontent are planted in a society and how easy the population can get swept up in the spitit of the "Movement". It happened in Spain, It happened in France and it happened in Germany (Nazi) and many third world countries. Once the euphoria and adrenalin subside there is certainly a high rate of "buyers remorse".
Yes, I think I am most scared of you than I pitty you.

 

[utgibbs]

I don't know whether to feel sorry for you or fear you.
Your lack of understanding how communism proliferates and survives is definately scarry.
For every friend like Juan (the guy that got away) there are 100 that end up in prison. They have food rationing, they carry refrigerators (refurbished 1960's models) on bicycles and in wagons. They live without hope, they are totally and completely oppressed. They have been subject to constant Orwellian style propaganda for the last 50 years. They instinctly know that things are bad for them but they think things are worse in the USA. Why? because we work hard.
Why do you think to this day boatloads of starving refugees show up off the coast of Miami? These people risk their lives (and often do die) for a chance at freedom.
I suggest you learn more about how the seeds of discontent are planted in a society and how easy the population can get swept up in the spitit of the "Movement". It happened in Spain, It happened in France and it happened in Germany (Nazi) and many third world countries. Once the euphoria and adrenalin subside there is certainly a high rate of "buyers remorse".
Yes, I think I am most scared of you than I pitty you.

It's been 60 years! That's a heckuva euphoria and adrenaline rush!

How is Elian Gonzalez doing these days? He doesn't appear to be starving.

In fact, in the early 1990s, the Cubans were missing a meal a day. What they did to change that should inspire the world.

I don't doubt there are hardships, as anywhere. I don't doubt there are complaints. But it is superficial. What Jorge Mas Canosa and the entire might of the world's superpower could not do, 12 Fidelists in the Sierra Maestra did.

 

[utgibbs]

gsvol,

I am calling you out. Do you support the terrorist organizations linked to CANF? Let's have it, yes or no?

 

[gsvol]

No, it's not.

And Mandela isn't evil like a terrorist, and anyone can see that now. He just wasn't for the oppression of 90% of the population. I'm not sure what you think should have been done, anyways. He tried nonviolence and it obviously wouldn't work.

I would say that necklacing is one of the most evil things I have ever heard of, if that isn't evil then what is??

The 90% you speak of have less opportunity now than then and are more oppressed than ever.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

What you try to hold up as a hero is an evil murderer and was a communist terrorist with no concience to me.

Because I support one person that you call a communist makes me a communist? Rational.

I didn't say you were a communist I just asked you to support your argument which you are obviously incapable of doing.

Are you trying to make the argument that Mandela wasn't a communist??

If so you don't have a leg to stand on.

You mean the terrorist organizations formerly supported by Jorge Mas Canosa in Little Havana? Like the terrorist on trial in El Paso right now? Are you giving materiel support to Omega 7, gsvol? Those terrorists in Little Havana tried to blow up Madison Square Garden. Colleagues of Mas Canosa helped Michael Townsley assassinate an American citizen, Ronnie Moffit, on Embassy Row.

Are you freakin' serious?

Don't know Jorge but I used to know a lot of Cubans and they were universal in their hatred of Castro, and rightfully so imo.

I don't know whether to feel sorry for you or fear you.
Your lack of understanding how communism proliferates and survives is definately scarry.
For every friend like Juan (the guy that got away) there are 100 that end up in prison. They have food rationing, they carry refrigerators (refurbished 1960's models) on bicycles and in wagons. They live without hope, they are totally and completely oppressed. They have been subject to constant Orwellian style propaganda for the last 50 years. They instinctly know that things are bad for them but they think things are worse in the USA. Why? because we work hard.
Why do you think to this day boatloads of starving refugees show up off the coast of Miami? These people risk their lives (and often do die) for a chance at freedom.
I suggest you learn more about how the seeds of discontent are planted in a society and how easy the population can get swept up in the spitit of the "Movement". It happened in Spain, It happened in France and it happened in Germany (Nazi) and many third world countries. Once the euphoria and adrenalin subside there is certainly a high rate of "buyers remorse".
Yes, I think I am most scared of you than I pitty you.

Let's list the liberties Castro brought to Cuba!

First he liberated them from prosperity, Cuba went from the highest per capita income in the western hemisphere (yes even higher than the USA) to the second lowest in about three years, higher than only Haiti.

He liberated them from the evils of America Rock and Roll music, teenagers caught listening to rock on their transistors were executed without even a trial.

The list goes on and on.

 

[utgibbs]

This is so much utter rubbish. Admittedly the quinquenio gris did put pressure on long hair and rock music, and Cuba does still have the death penalty (although I think Raul has given a stay of execution on the three prisoners on death row), NO ONE was executed for listening to Rock n Roll. Absolutely preposterous.

Trying to blow up Madison Square Garden is pretty evil. Blowing off somebody's legs so he bleeds to death on Embassy Row is pretty evil. Necklacing is pretty evil too. So was firing on kids protesting Afrikaan language is Soweto, among much else.

 

[tvolsfan]

I would say that necklacing is one of the most evil things I have ever heard of, if that isn't evil then what is??

Genocide comes to mind. If he tried to kill off all the whites after gaining power, you may have a point.

Out of curiosity, how do you think the whole thing should have been handled?

The 90% you speak of have less opportunity now than then and are more oppressed than ever.

Really? They must hate the right to vote and all. Which do you think they prefer?

 

[gsvol]

gsvol,

I am calling you out. Do you support the terrorist organizations linked to CANF? Let's have it, yes or no?

I can't answer yes or no to that question because I've never even heard of the CANF.

Can you direct me to published articles or books on that topic?? I can't put much stock in what Castro, Jose Antonio Llama or Jane Franklin (nor her husband who are both avid supporters of Castro,) have to say and please no wiccanpedia, anyone can write anything they want there and usually do, a very unreliable source.

I googled it and found CANF to stand for Cuban American National Foundation and to be operated on behalf of Cuban exiles dedicated to the overthrow of Castro, so yes I would tend to support their efforts, having known numerous Cubans who mostly had at least one family member killed by Castro and all of whom had lost all their worldly belongings and had to start over from scratch.

One thing is for certain, the CANF could have come nowhere close to having committed as many crimes against humanity as the Castro brothers and Guevara in Cuba or the Cuban assisted ANC torture camps in Angola.

Left-Wing Bloodbaths

Radical leftists would have us believe that they stand for democracy, progress, human rights and social justice – but when they seize power, they impose slavery, terror, famine, concentration camps and mass murder. As the Marxists used to say, this is no accident.

As guerrilla war ends, corruption now bleeds Angola to death - Telegraph

And with more than one million of its 11 million population in need of food aid after the end of decades of civil war, corruption in Angola means yet more human suffering.

Bloody Tally of a Fifty-Year Long Dictatorship

Fidel Castro has enjoyed generally favorable worldwide treatment, which stands in sharp contrast with what most tyrants typically get. This is more remarkable given that he is responsible for the bloodiest chapter of Latin America’s republican history and that his regime of terror has lasted five decades.

In fact, Fidel Castro has staged one of the most successful propaganda campaigns of all times. The key to this masterful manipulation has been the effective concealment of his worst crimes and a pervasive unawareness of the large cost in lives of the Castro dynasty. This largely explains the persistent ignorance of the bloody and ruthless nature of the regime and the tendency to justify it on the basis of so-called principles of equality and social justice. But mounting evidence of brutality will make it increasingly difficult to sustain this false legitimacy. When the truth finally comes out, Castro’s singular ability to fool so many, so much, and for so long will be nakedly exposed.

How about the Puerto Rican Socialist terrorist groups, do you support their efforts to liberate themselves from the USA and establish a Castro style government in Puerto Rico??

Puerto Rico: The SPF's terrorist bridge to the U.S.

In 1950, Puerto Rican terrorist Andrés Figueroa Cordero attempted to murder President Harry Truman. In 1954, a suicide commando group of four Puerto Rican terrorists shot up the U.S. House of Representatives, wounding five congressmen. In 1979, the four were pardoned by President Jimmy Carter, and a few days later, Rafael Cancel Miranda, head of the commando squad, declared to the international press that he was ready to do it all over again, but this time using grenades instead of bullets!

OLSON BOOK'S CHILLING WARNING: CLINTON'S TERRORIST PARDONS SENT SIGNAL

In August 1999 Clinton pardoned 16 FALN terrorists without even being asked, in a move that was widely seen as a cynical ploy to win Hispanic votes for his wife's New York Senate bid.

The group had planned and executed 130 bombing attacks on New York, Chicago and Washington, D.C., from 1974 to 1983. Miraculously, the FALN managed to kill just six Americans. But hundreds more were seriously wounded.

Law enforcement officials were stunned when Clinton decided to pardon the FALN bombers.

I wasn't, everyone with a double digit IQ realizes Slick Willy and his wife are dedicated socialists.

 

[VOLatile]

Wikipedia is now a mostly reliable source for information. Much more reliable than a right- or left-wing blog.

 

[gsvol]

This is so much utter rubbish. Admittedly the quinquenio gris did put pressure on long hair and rock music, and Cuba does still have the death penalty (although I think Raul has given a stay of execution on the three prisoners on death row), NO ONE was executed for listening to Rock n Roll. Absolutely preposterous.

Trying to blow up Madison Square Garden is pretty evil. Blowing off somebody's legs so he bleeds to death on Embassy Row is pretty evil. Necklacing is pretty evil too. So was firing on kids protesting Afrikaan language is Soweto, among much else.

Political Palaver: Disillusionment for the Cult of Che

But do they know that Che waged a political war against the “lumpen,” who were essentially anyone with long hair or anyone who listened to rock and roll? Yes, they were executed in rather large numbers by Che's authority, because long hair and affection for rock and roll were symptoms of a bourgeois sickness.

The previous government of South Africa wasn't all bad, for instance the largest hospital in the country was in Johanisburg and was built exclusively to treat the inhabitants of the slums of Soweto.

What we saw was a clash of stone age culture meeting the modern age, the previous government did as well as it could to do their part to meet the needs of the uneducated, untrained masses to bring them into the modern world.

Sadly, outside interference from Cuba and the Soviet Union among other interests have brought us to this point which is not very good to say the least, even for the inhabitants of the slums of Soweto even though they now have the freedom to go about the countryside and rob and murder people who are just trying to go about their own business.

This problem isn't confined to South Africa at all but is widespread on Latin America as well.

BTW, if you think the Soweto incident was bad, what is your opinion on the unprovoked Waco incident??

Wikipedia is now a mostly reliable source for information. Much more reliable than a right- or left-wing blog.

Wiccanpedia is notoriously unreliable.

Here is a very good example, a couple of years ago someone posted (as a joke I suppose) on a profile of John Siegenthaler, the past publisher of the Nashville Tennessean, that he was a conspirator in the JFK assassination and that he had fled the country for about four months after the assassination.

Nothing could be farther from the truth, Siegenthaler was an avid supporter of Kennedy and was absolutely not out of the country at any time during that period.

Wiccanpedia can be a useful tool if you don't know much about something, you can gather names etc on some topic but need to research further because you just can't accept wiccanpedia to always be correct.

After all anyone can write anything they want there and I've know of people who have tried to correct errors there and their entries have been erased and the same false entry reposted within the hour.

Let me interject here that the lame stream media isn't the greatest of sources for real information to say the least.

Genocide comes to mind. If he tried to kill off all the whites after gaining power, you may have a point.

Out of curiosity, how do you think the whole thing should have been handled?


Really? They must hate the right to vote and all. Which do you think they prefer?

Would you prefer to vote or to eat??

I read a book in about 1960 written by a man who had spent about 35 years in the American foreign service on the ground in Africa and Southeast Asia.

The two main points of his book were that in Africa the colonial powers would take their time in withdrawing, giving ample time for the education of enough of the people to able to govern themselves and to conduct orderly societies and have enough trained in various trades and skills so that they could continue to prosper and advance both economically and technologically.

Also when granting independence to regions in Africa, do not divide the countries with borders duplicating the colonial ones but to make the borders coincide with ancient tribal areas, it would have been a far better world for everyone, especially Africans if world leaders had followed his wise advice. (Rwanda is an excellent example.)

His other main thrust was that America not get involved in se Asia without Ho Chi Minh as an ally. We screwed that up dating all the way back to Woodrow Wilson with the notable exception of Dwight Eisenhower.

What has caused more problems in Africa, especially southern Africa is the interference of communist and socialist inspired strife.

In Rhodesia (now renamed Zimbabwe) for instance, blacks weren't denied the right to vote and had elected a black PM but pressure from Carter and the British PM disallowed that election and in the aftermath the bloody communist tyrant Mugabe was elected through the device of his murderous voter intimidation squads and we see what havoc his regime has wrought on the people of that country both black and white.

If South Africa had been left to settle it's own problems without outside interference, all the people, both black, white and coloured would be far better off today.

As things are going now, it looks as if South Africa will follow the Cuban model and that isn't good for anyone except for the ruling elites.

As for white genocide, consider this:

White Genocide in South Africa continues - Kill the boer, kill the farmer shouted outside school, Pretoria name to change | Fromtheold

The genocide against white Afrikaans speaking people in South Africa is continuing, they are also known as "boers". Over the past few days a number of people were brutally murdered, some even had nothing stolen as black armed gangs target white people in South Africa.

First of all the ANC wants to change the name of Pretoria to Tswane, Pretoria is one of the last renaming Afrikaans cities in the world. The name Pretoria they say must change to Tswane.

Then there is the case where people from the "young communist league" shouted "kill the boer, kill the farmer" (in their own language) outside Free State Voortrekker Afrikaans High School. This blatant racism continues in South Africa and some racism goes under the guise of "transformation".

Racism is no less evil whatever the color of the face of the racists.

PS; if you can, please try to keep our discussion going as I would like to bring out a lot of facts not generally known about this topic, needless to say it isn't so simple as a black and white issue. (and I have run on at length already.)

 

[utgibbs]

Che executed the Batista quislings when he marched into Havana in Jan 1959. There is no doubt about that.

The "grey five years" certainly saw long hair, homosexuality (still a problem), and rock n roll stigmatized in Cuban society. NO ONE was executed for it. Che was long dead btw.

The "Cuban model" has done exactly the opposite - it made an entire country literate, healthy, and the envy of the Third World. It did this while being invaded, then blockaded by the world superpower. It did this even in the collapse of Comecon. South Africa's own Truth and Reconciliation Commission concludes more people died outside RSA borders than inside as the Apartheid supreme elitist government felt destabilization / buffer zones were necessary for its increasing isolation. This is why they backed the loser Savimbi for decades; attacked SWAPO at every opportunity, and felt froggy enough to try to take Cuito Canavale - the disaster that fell Apartheid a decade earlier.

Your "history" is so bad, you'd better get back to Photoshop. And, I want to know if you support the terrorist organizations fathered in Little Havana!

 

[gasguy98]

It's been 60 years! That's a heckuva euphoria and adrenaline rush!

How is Elian Gonzalez doing these days? He doesn't appear to be starving.

In fact, in the early 1990s, the Cubans were missing a meal a day. What they did to change that should inspire the world.

I don't doubt there are hardships, as anywhere. I don't doubt there are complaints. But it is superficial. What Jorge Mas Canosa and the entire might of the world's superpower could not do, 12 Fidelists in the Sierra Maestra did.

You truely frighten me.

 

[TennTradition]

Gratulerer, du vet hvordan å si ett ord på spansk. Ved å kalle meg flaggermus guano, har du vist deg å være gal. Du kommando svært liten respekt for noen på dette forumet. Jeg fortsetter å kalle noen navn, selv om 99% av styret er uenig med hva jeg sier eller mener, hvorfor kan ikke du når en person er uenig?

Why/how would I name a communist country that was successful when I don't even come close to supporting communism?

What's up with the Norwegian? Or is this Swedish? I don't know Norwegian well enough to distinguish it from sone of the similar Scandic languages.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Che executed the Batista quislings when he marched into Havana in Jan 1959. There is no doubt about that.

The "grey five years" certainly saw long hair, homosexuality (still a problem), and rock n roll stigmatized in Cuban society. NO ONE was executed for it. Che was long dead btw.

The "Cuban model" has done exactly the opposite - it made an entire country literate, healthy, and the envy of the Third World. It did this while being invaded, then blockaded by the world superpower. It did this even in the collapse of Comecon. South Africa's own Truth and Reconciliation Commission concludes more people died outside RSA borders than inside as the Apartheid supreme elitist government felt destabilization / buffer zones were necessary for its increasing isolation. This is why they backed the loser Savimbi for decades; attacked SWAPO at every opportunity, and felt froggy enough to try to take Cuito Canavale - the disaster that fell Apartheid a decade earlier.

Your "history" is so bad, you'd better get back to Photoshop. And, I want to know if you support the terrorist organizations fathered in Little Havana!

Envy of the 3rd World = Tallest midget


I swear, utgibbs has jokes for days...

 

[utgibbs]

Envy of the 3rd World = Tallest midget


I swear, utgibbs has jokes for days...

Actually, regarding health care and education, Cuba is the envy of much of the First World.

 

[overseasorange2]

Actually, regarding health care and education, Cuba is the envy of much of the First World.

If they only had a little freedom......

 

[utgibbs]

If they only had a little freedom......

What kind of freedom do you mean?

 

[utvolpj]

it's so great they choose to cross shark-infested waters in a raft made of styrofoam coolers and aluminum siding to get away. Or maybe they just want to share the wonderful world of Cuba with the rest of the world?

 

[Heebs]

utgibbs, you are truly mind bottling.

Why are you trolling so hard? I have never met another person who has championed Cuba. Ever. You are absolutely crazy if you believe this garbage.

I am so happy I'm not one of your kids. Man, they are going to have a screwed up worldview.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

utgibbs, you are truly mind bottling.

Why are you trolling so hard? I have never met another person who has championed Cuba. Ever. You are absolutely crazy if you believe this garbage.

I am so happy I'm not one of your kids. Man, they are going to have a screwed up worldview.

:boggling:

You guys have to realize that he is just pulling your legs and only highlighting the idiocy of many of the left's philosophies. He plays the arrogant Devil's advocate in many of his posts.

 

[Heebs]

bottling*

 

[utgibbs]

utgibbs, you are truly mind bottling.

Why are you trolling so hard? I have never met another person who has championed Cuba. Ever. You are absolutely crazy if you believe this garbage.

I am so happy I'm not one of your kids. Man, they are going to have a screwed up worldview.

Actually, Heebs, if we are talking about worldviews and world opinion, you are holding the superminority position.

With that knowledge, I'm wondering who has the screwed up world view?

Mind bottling - I think they did that with Nixon on Futurama didn't they?

 

[gsvol]

You truely frighten me.

To me he's a gas, the frightening part is the number of people in the world who believe the things he says.

Envy of the 3rd World = Tallest midget


I swear, utgibbs has jokes for days...

We mentioned South Africa and white genocide, this link lists the names of many of those who have been brutally murdered:

SOUTH AFRICAN CIRCUS- THE WHITE GENOCIDE AND DEATH OF A COUNTRY.

Johannesburg - "It's time you whites packed your bags and f***ed off."

With these words a black police inspector from Tembisa on the East Rand allegedly scolded the victims of an armed robbery and hijacking attempt in Kempton Park on Monday night.

This officer, whose name is known to Beeld, apparently refused to arrest a black suspect on the scene.

He also refused to open a case after Nic Lubbe, 51, from Kempton Park West, his daughter, Antoenet Cronjé, and her two sons, Morné, 11, and Kyle, 3, were assailed by robbers on Monday night.

'White dogs'

He ostensibly also refused to allow white members of the Norkem Park police to search the suspects' car and called them "white dogs".

Further along in the link there is a statement by a black South African who opposes the ANC and it's racism and other priorities, although it generally isn't wise to speak out against the communists, particularly if you are black.

As a black South African I have witnessed my relatives, friends and even general aquaintances starving, suffering, battling to live with no homes, meds, education, etc.

Yet idiots like Mozet, Piri & Ngwane (claiming to be proud black SA citizens) turn their backs on the true needs of our people? You moan about a NAME, while our people are dying like flies?

You try and justify that wasting this money on changing names is better than spending it on feeding, educating, clothing and housing our people? Are you blind or just stupid and ignorant? You point fingers at "colonials" - yet, YOU are actually the problem.

Do you walk to work/school? Do you hunt and eat your kill like our forfathers did? Do you live in mud huts or "colonial" houses? Do you own a cellphone? Funny, because in T/Kei where I come from, we would shout across the hills and sing our messages. Yes, you want everything the whities have, but you want to call it your own? Taking things "by force" does not make them yours. You are the hypocrites - actually, I have a stronger isiXhosa name to call you and your idiotic ideas, but I've wasted enough time already on reading your crap.

Spend our tax money on what it is ACTUALLY NEEDED for and stop blowing wind up your own asses - you are NOT as wonderful as you think you are.

Grow up and wake up! If it weren't for those "colonials" helping me to get where I am, I would still be sitting in my hut, not even knowing what a computer is!

And if EVER I have seen a bunch of criminals who don't know what the hell they are doing - it is our current government. Believe me - I will NOT make the mistake of voting for them again. Bring in people who actually know what they are doing, instead of the fatcats that are presently in power.

Viva South Africa - names and all! Stop bankrupting this country with nonsense!

There are several more very good short articles that you won't be reading in wapo or the NY Slimes, another short excerpt:

Malema wanted to know why white youth do not attend rallies. This from the moron who shouted “we will kill for Zuma” and who merrily sings “kill the Boer, kill the farmer”

Actually, regarding health care and education, Cuba is the envy of much of the First World.

That's why Fidel had to go to Spain to get his surgery.