Any better than Dooley?

#251
#251
Doyle Hargraves said:
Perhaps I was wrong in wanting Fulmer fired considering the years that have followed.







There I said it.
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Thing is... it was getting worse under Fulmer. His last class still didn't have any quality linemen at the point he was fired. Several of the highly rated prospects that were committed to him were busts whether they ended up signing or went somewhere else.

It was not a question of whether he was going to be fired or not... only how deep the hole was going to be when the next guy took over. Of course, it would have been better to have had him for another year than Kiffin's one year. UT probably could have hired a better coach in '10 if Kiffin were never hired.
 
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#252
#252
Grand Vol said:
Firing was a bit drastic. Perhaps asking him to retire behind the scenes and having a say in his replacement would have been better. Reasonably certain he wouldn't have picked the coach whose name we will not speak. Or the one that followed him.
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Pretty sure he was offered a more graceful exit and refused it. He was very tied in politically but underestimated how many had turned on him.
 
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#253
#253
sjt18 said:
Thing is... it was getting worse under Fulmer. His last class still didn't have any quality linemen at the point he was fired. Several of the highly rated prospects that were committed to him were busts whether they ended up signing or went somewhere else.

It was not a question of whether he was going to be fired or not... only how deep the hole was going to be when the next guy took over. Of course, it would have been better to have had him for another year than Kiffin's one year. UT probably could have hired a better coach in '10 if Kiffin were never hired.
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I've always thought the way it happened was dirty. I know it happens even to National Championship winning coaches, just felt like it was the way wrong approach in how it happened.

But let's face facts here, Hamilton was never a good judge of character in what a football coach should be. If there is a single person to point to for the downfall of our program, its never been one particular coach. We can go round and round over Fulmer, Kiffin and Dooley ruining our program and whatnot, but simple fact remains

Mike Hamilton did more to destroy UT football than all three combined.
 
#254
#254
bottom line is we all want to win and have different opinions on how we want our Vols to come back to glory..
it begins with being competitive in big games.... we are not there yet... then we win...
 
#255
#255
gasguy98 said:
Dooley should have beat LSU in his first year but didn't.
Dooley beat Cincy when he played Jones with this talent we see on the field now.

Jones almost beat UGA (minus two of their best O players). We did beat SC with a great play by North but every other competitive game has been a blowout and now we are seeing the team flat out give up.

I love the energy Jones brings, the cute slogans etc. but lets be honest....Dooley would have fared just as well this year. We see the exact same level of intensity that Dooley produced with pretty much the exact same results.

When SEC rivals set new records against team 117 it is not improvement. We simply have not improved one iota under Jones and it has me concerned that this turn around (if we are having one) is going to be a lot longer than many of us have the stomach for.

Fire away...
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The deal right now at Tennesse is no matter who the coach is we AIN"T winning with the quality of players we're able to put on the field. Dooley couldn't bring in the athletes need to play at the level we need in the SEC. Look at Auburn..1st year coach...great athletes...winning season !!
 
#256
#256
Everybody needs to remember Kiffen ledt at the worst possible time! Hammy didn't have much choice and it wasn't like coaches were beating down our door!
 
#258
#258
knoxvols11 said:
Everybody needs to remember Kiffen ledt at the worst possible time! Hammy didn't have much choice and it wasn't like coaches were beating down our door!
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Hammy got us into the mess to begin with by hiring that fool even after Al Davis told everyone it was a big mistake.
 
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#259
#259
govols1960 said:
The deal right now at Tennesse is no matter who the coach is we AIN"T winning with the quality of players we're able to put on the field. Dooley couldn't bring in the athletes need to play at the level we need in the SEC. Look at Auburn..1st year coach...great athletes...winning season !!
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And look at Missouri. Haven't had a class ranked in the top 20 in recent memory. Whipped us.
 
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#260
#260
Franklin beat GA and FL and played SC very good with lesser talent so I don't like that argument at all. I am not so sure we are dealing with the best staff in the country as stated by Butch. Maybe the best staff in Cincy but I think Jones will need to make some changes to his staff or scheme before we see much out of this team. I realize we have a good class coming in and if that continues things will improve but how can Vandy be so good with less talent....hmmm you tell me??
 
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#261
#261
crunchimusmaximus said:
I agree...the blind loyalty here toward butch is sickening.....it was just like this as well when Dooley was here... .
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There is a certain population of "coach worshippers" who care more about the man with the clipboard than anything else, they lift him up on a pedestal and make him "god-like" saying he can lead the program to the promised land. I will never do this again, i revere only 1 thing, the University of Tennessee Vols. The boys who put on the pads, i don't give a rats a$$ about who coaches them, as long as they play hard. Winning is Scheme+Luck+Recognition+Ability, coach is only 25% of that, hell, the same amount as Luck.

/rant_over
 
#263
#263
EastTN said:
. . . I think Jones will need to make some changes to his staff or scheme before we see much out of this team. I realize we have a good class coming in and if that continues things will improve but how can Vandy be so good with less talent....hmmm you tell me??
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I can't and won't argue the possibility that you are correct, but I don't think it is reasonable to view this year as definitive of CBJ or his staff.

Franklin was 2-6 conference, 6-7 overall his first year. Yes, he was four wins better than the prior year, but with an arguably softer schedule.

Jones has a legit chance at matching Franklin's first year or slightly better (with an extra conference win and a bowl win) while playing one of the roughest schedules in recent history.

If we see similar results in years two and three, I am with you. Right now, i am giving the benefit of the doubt to CBJ.
 
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#264
#264
EastTN said:
Franklin beat GA and FL and played SC very good with lesser talent so I don't like that argument at all. I am not so sure we are dealing with the best staff in the country as stated by Butch. Maybe the best staff in Cincy but I think Jones will need to make some changes to his staff or scheme before we see much out of this team. I realize we have a good class coming in and if that continues things will improve but how can Vandy be so good with less talent....hmmm you tell me??
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1. Florida was not the same team when we played them.
2. UGA- injuries like Florida
3. How long has Vanderbilt been in the same scheme?
4. How many consecutive top 10 opponents has Vanderbilt played?

Some of you think this is an xbox game where you just plug people in and nothing skips a beat. WE HAVE HAD A LOSING SEASON WITH THESE PLAYERS FOR 3 STRAIGHT YEARS BEFORE BUTCH CAME HERE. We have changed schemes once again and have overhauled the coaching staff once again. On top of that, this team has zero depth. Yet, some of you are surprised that we look worse at the end of the gauntlet rather than where we were at the beginning? Everyone looks at it like it's in a vacuum and never considers why these things are happening.

You expect a guy coming out of HS that was a 4 star to be great this year even though his entire career he has sucked. You expect a team that is used to losing to miraculously win 8 or 9 games even through another coaching staff overhaul and playing this schedule. You expect players to miraculously become faster.

The goal for the entire year was to win 6 and that was before we even knew that Auburn and Missouri would be top 10 teams and beat the likes of A&M and others. It is a process, and we finally have a guy that is treating it like a process.
 
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#266
#266
gasguy98 said:
It is not 1977 anymore. Like it or not coaches have 3 or 4 years to prove themselves with improvement.

We are not any better off now than we were last year, particularly on D.

Gus and Saban seemed to have shown improvement in one and 2 years respectively. I am not saying we have to win the conference but show improvement for gods sake.

Not giving up on Jones yet, just a bit concerned that we are looking at 4 years before being competitive.
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Malzahn inherited a roster that would win the east. What you saw last year from Auburn was just plain bad coaching. His roster was actually good enough to beat LSU and an arms reach from Bama. From where I sit, he is under-performing by one game.

Saban went 6-6 during the regular season his first year, while losing the last four games of the season, including a shocker to La-Monroe. By the way, Bama went 6-6 the year before as well. What improvement did you see there?
 
#268
#268
oregonvol said:
No. Is there anyone who has seriously said that? I'm willing to bet there are far more posts on this forum about people wanting Butch Jones fired than there are actual posts demanding he be fired.
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Yes people have seriously said they want Butch fired. Have you seen some of these posts?
 
#269
#269
gasguy98 said:
Dooley should have beat LSU in his first year but didn't.
Dooley beat Cincy when he played Jones with this talent we see on the field now.

Jones almost beat UGA (minus two of their best O players). We did beat SC with a great play by North but every other competitive game has been a blowout and now we are seeing the team flat out give up.

I love the energy Jones brings, the cute slogans etc. but lets be honest....Dooley would have fared just as well this year. We see the exact same level of intensity that Dooley produced with pretty much the exact same results.

When SEC rivals set new records against team 117 it is not improvement. We simply have not improved one iota under Jones and it has me concerned that this turn around (if we are having one) is going to be a lot longer than many of us have the stomach for.

Fire away...
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Jones is much much better than DD. I used to think bamer fans were the worst.....not anymore
 
#270
#270
Grand Vol said:
I've always thought the way it happened was dirty. I know it happens even to National Championship winning coaches, just felt like it was the way wrong approach in how it happened.
.
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Some say (and I cannot vouch one way or the other) that CPF more or less forced the eventual way it went down.

IMO 2005 was inexcusable and CPF should have been fired then. If he was to be retained it should have been conditional on major staff retstructuring.
 
#271
#271
tm3 said:
Some say (and I cannot vouch one way or the other) that CPF more or less forced the eventual way it went down.

IMO 2005 was inexcusable and CPF should have been fired then. If he was to be retained it should have been conditional on major staff retstructuring.
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I don't deny he needed to move on or at least take a break for a while.

My problem was with Hamilton more than anything. He's a snake that made some pretty poor choices.
 
#272
#272
EastTN said:
Franklin beat GA and FL and played SC very good with lesser talent so I don't like that argument at all. I am not so sure we are dealing with the best staff in the country as stated by Butch. Maybe the best staff in Cincy but I think Jones will need to make some changes to his staff or scheme before we see much out of this team. I realize we have a good class coming in and if that continues things will improve but how can Vandy be so good with less talent....hmmm you tell me??
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Player development and integration to a system over the course of a few years. And a poor eye for SEC quality players under Dooley regardless of the number of stars. Oh yeah and attrition. I don't think we have a single player left from Kiffin's class or something crazy like that. We have had the death penalty imposed upon us and the NCAA didn't have anything to do with it. :peace2:

Edit: Oh yeah, and I'm not sold on the Vandy team yet. UGA gave that game away and they got UF when they were totally decimated and have given up. UF had four turnovers inside their own red zone. Vandy only had 185 yards in total offense in that game I believe.
 
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#273
#273
daj2576 said:
Malzahn inherited a roster that would win the east. What you saw last year from Auburn was just plain bad coaching. His roster was actually good enough to beat LSU and an arms reach from Bama. From where I sit, he is under-performing by one game.

Saban went 6-6 during the regular season his first year, while losing the last four games of the season, including a shocker to La-Monroe. By the way, Bama went 6-6 the year before as well. What improvement did you see there?
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True dat
 
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