All Time NBA Players Thread - No Jordan vs. Lebron Debate Allowed

#1
n_huffhines

n_huffhines

What's it gonna cost?
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#1
I was gonna post something about Karl Malone in the Jordan Doc thread, but I figured people who don't want to hear that discussion aren't going there anymore.

Zach Lowe has the perfect take that Harden = Malone. It's great because style-wise and personality-wise they are completely different players but they're likely going to end up with the exact same legacy. I've come up with a theory as to why they fall short in the playoffs. I think it's because they don't have enough moves. They're not 7-footers, they're not playing above the rim, and they're not the fastest guys on the floor, so having a handful of moves probably isn't going to cut it.

For Malone, I only count 5 moves.... face-up fade which set up a blow-by, turnaround fade, jump hook, and a little runner. That's it. For his career, Malone averaged 24.2 per 36 at .577 TS% and in the playoffs that dropped to 21.7 and .526

Harden averages 26.4 and .612 TS% in the regular season and 24 and .585 in the postseason.

You should expect a little dropoff in efficiency from just about anybody, but both are clearly better in the regular season. Harden's stats are still really good, just not enough since the offense is so reliant on him. Harden has more moves than Malone if you want to count all the dribble drive variations, but ultimately he's just shooting a 3 or getting to the rim and it's predictable.

I know I give Kobe a lot of ****, but maybe his greatness was in the fact that once the D tightened in playoff basketball he had a million moves and spots he liked, and shooting a little above average efficiency with his D leading the way on the other end was enough. In other words, Kobe might have been able to shoot a crazy TS% if he just maximized his 5 best moves but now you're too reliant on these tendencies, and playoff D will get you.
 
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#3
#3
I think it’s not just necessarily a move set. If you look at Harden and Malone, they had one major thing they constantly did. For Malone it was high pick and roll/pick and pop with Stockton and then Harden it’s isolation 3 or drive. In the regular season, with limited prep time and defenses that can be shaky/travel time etc., it’s harder to prepare and guard for. But in the playoffs you have days off and all your scout guys preparing for that specific offense. So the opponent gets used to it, you become familiar with the sets and get comfortable with the opponent’s tendencies. And then back in the 90’s with Malone you could really muck it up too and be physical. Back then refs were more likely to let the players play. And since he was never a great post player like an Hakeem or a Duncan (or 325 pounds like Shaq) you could find the best coverage against the ball screens with Stockton and take away his greatest strength.

In today’s game the scouting and athleticism is too good. So you have to be creative and mix your offensive sets or have multiple elite offensive players that can create for themselves and others. With Harden (even though he is an elite creator) Houston does not mix things up like Golden State and Miami and San Antonio did (previous championship teams). It’s very isolation heavy (and doesn’t help Harden won’t work off the ball) and the more you see of a player the more comfortable you get against him. And other than the two Paul years (and they were up 3-2 when Paul went down in 2018) Harden has not had another great scorer/creator (sorry Jerry but Westbrook ain’t it) that can help shoulder that offensive load.

And look I have been a huge Harden supporter. Even as people have hated him and his game I think he’s absolutely brilliant. But he deserves criticism for his playoff performances. He has shrank in potential series clinching/elimination games. And part of that is A) he doesn’t work off the ball and has never shown interest in developing a post game and then B) he has never been in super shape. Even though the bowling ball body does help some there’s a reason he looks gassed every postseason while guys like LeBron or Steph or KD have consistently been able to look great during long postseason runs. And he deserves the criticism for that.
 
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#4
#4
95 Vol Alum said:
It’s amazing to me how a guy who hasn’t won anything significant as the leader dominates the airtime for the league.
Click to expand...

Because he’s the only transcendent guy out there that is polarizing. LeBron isn’t polarizing anymore, he’s top 5 ever. Steph, Kawhi and KD got their chips. Paul is past his prime and doesn’t play for a true championship contender anymore. Davis got his chip. Butler isn’t transcendent or popular enough. Luka and Trae are too young. Other than Giannis there isn’t a guy like Harden and Giannis just earned major points for sticking with Milwaukee. Plus Harden’s playoff failures, his partying and now his most recent antics make for great fodder.
 
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#5
#5
zjcvols said:
I think it’s not just necessarily a move set. If you look at Harden and Malone, they had one major thing they constantly did. For Malone it was high pick and roll/pick and pop with Stockton and then Harden it’s isolation 3 or drive. In the regular season, with limited prep time and defenses that can be shaky/travel time etc., it’s harder to prepare and guard for. But in the playoffs you have days off and all your scout guys preparing for that specific offense. So the opponent gets used to it, you become familiar with the sets and get comfortable with the opponent’s tendencies. And then back in the 90’s with Malone you could really muck it up too and be physical. Back then refs were more likely to let the players play. And since he was never a great post player like an Hakeem or a Duncan (or 325 pounds like Shaq) you could find the best coverage against the ball screens with Stockton and take away his greatest strength.

In today’s game the scouting and athleticism is too good. So you have to be creative and mix your offensive sets or have multiple elite offensive players that can create for themselves and others. With Harden (even though he is an elite creator) Houston does not mix things up like Golden State and Miami and San Antonio did (previous championship teams). It’s very isolation heavy (and doesn’t help Harden won’t work off the ball) and the more you see of a player the more comfortable you get against him. And other than the two Paul years (and they were up 3-2 when Paul went down in 2018) Harden has not had another great scorer/creator (sorry Jerry but Westbrook ain’t it) that can help shoulder that offensive load.

And look I have been a huge Harden supporter. Even as people have hated him and his game I think he’s absolutely brilliant. But he deserves criticism for his playoff performances. He has shrank in potential series clinching/elimination games. And part of that is A) he doesn’t work off the ball and has never shown interest in developing a post game and then B) he has never been in super shape. Even though the bowling ball body does help some there’s a reason he looks gassed every postseason while guys like LeBron or Steph or KD have consistently been able to look great during long postseason runs. And he deserves the criticism for that.
Click to expand...

It seemed like it was high at the time, but these were mostly happening on the elbow or a few feet to each side of it.
 
#6
#6
zjcvols said:
Because he’s the only transcendent guy out there that is polarizing. LeBron isn’t polarizing anymore, he’s top 5 ever. Steph, Kawhi and KD got their chips. Paul is past his prime and doesn’t play for a true championship contender anymore. Davis got his chip. Butler isn’t transcendent or popular enough. Luka and Trae are too young. Other than Giannis there isn’t a guy like Harden and Giannis just earned major points for sticking with Milwaukee. Plus Harden’s playoff failures, his partying and now his most recent antics make for great fodder.
Click to expand...

Yeah, he and Giannis are the best players without a title, and Harden's a seasoned vet at this point, so he's gonna get it worse than anybody. Dame doesn't get it because he's a loveable little guy with no MVP's.
 
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#8
#8
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, he and Giannis are the best players without a title, and Harden's a seasoned vet at this point, so he's gonna get it worse than anybody. Dame doesn't get it because he's a loveable little guy with no MVP's.
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And Dame isn’t a transcendent player either. Nobody is gonna be referring to Dame as an all-timer in 30 years.
 
#9
#9
zjcvols said:
And Dame isn’t a transcendent player either. Nobody is gonna be referring to Dame as an all-timer in 30 years.
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Maybe not transcendent, but he's gonna retire the greatest Blazer of all time and it's a pretty good franchise. I think he'll be remembered as an all-timer for a long time, but 30 years is fkn really long, so we'll see.
 
#10
#10
n_huffhines said:
Maybe not transcendent, but he's gonna retire the greatest Blazer of all time and it's a pretty good franchise. I think he'll be remembered a long time, but 30 years is fkn really long, so we'll see.
Click to expand...

That’s fair, I just won’t be spending 15 minutes to my future bastard children I don’t want about the good old days of Dame Lillard lol
 
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#11
#11
zjcvols said:
That’s fair, I just won’t be spending 15 minutes to my future bastard children I don’t want about the good old days of Dame Lillard lol
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Yeah, he'll be at all-star weekend in 2035 and my kid will be like "who the hell is that?" and I'll say "the greatest Blazer of all time, Luka."
 
#15
#15
zjcvols said:
Actually I think Dame has a ways legacy wise to catch Drexler. Drexler was the best player on two Finals team, Dame has never won a game past the 2nd round.
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It's definitely debatable. I like Drexler better but Portland right now is 100% the Dame show and it wasn't exactly the Drexler show back in the day. Porter ran the offense and was very good...and then the lasting memories of Drexler are getting smashed by MJ and then winning a title as a Rocket. I'm assuming Dame finishes his career in Portland. If he doesn't, then I he's probably not the greatest Blazer.
 
#16
#16
In the 90 Finals against those great Detroit teams, Clyde put up 28/8/6 on 54% shooting
 
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#17
#17
zjcvols said:
In the 90 Finals against those great Detroit teams, Clyde put up 28/8/6 on 54% shooting
Click to expand...

Wow. Maybe the Pistons weren't built to shut down great SG's? Jordan was doing an efficient 30 ppg against them in the playoffs. Any other great SG's face them in the playoffs that we can look at?
 
#19
#19
n_huffhines said:
Wow. Maybe the Pistons weren't built to shut down great SG's? Jordan was doing an efficient 30 ppg against them in the playoffs. Any other great SG's face them in the playoffs that we can look at?
Click to expand...

Pulled up Jeff Malone from the 88 series against the Bullets in the first round and MJ, this is interesting (MJ’s 33% is misleading. He only took three 3PA)

D3D0DCF0-8A01-4C1F-AA13-17BE8CF2BAC1.png

FF3893A5-32AF-4597-8F56-5CF5CF4FDA02.png
 
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#20
#20
Here’s Byron Scott from the 1988 Finals as well (only 9 3PA)...

BEAD0772-9389-43A0-8740-200AF800BB11.png
 
#22
#22
1989 (points/assists/TS%)

Reggie Lewis: 20.7/3.7/50.2%
Ricky Pierce: 22.5/2.0/57.5%
Michael Jordan: 29.7/6.5/56.1%
Michael Cooper: 12/6.8/50.4%
 
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#24
#24
Why am I just learning about Fat Lever and how good he was?
 
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