Obama Ends Stem Cell Research Ban (merged)

#77
#77
allvol123 said:
I doubt his veto retarded the research of the rest of the world. So no, that would not be a good reason for number 1.
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What other country in the world can put the resources and money towards it the U.S. could have? I'm seriously asking, because it seems to me we have the monopoly on medical talent and money...and even if the entire world was working on it, it isn't like each country is going to share advances. This research holds enormous potential to gain exclusive patent rights on a number of possible medical cures. It's a sad state of affairs that advances have been made in countries like France, Japan, and even Iran and we have been left behind because our political discourse on the science has been hijacked by religious ideologies and dogmas.

This is the first decision made by the Obama administration thus far that I agree 100% with.
 
#78
#78
rjd970 said:
What other country in the world can put the resources and money towards it the U.S. could have? I'm seriously asking, because it seems to me we have the monopoly on medical talent and money...and even if the entire world was working on it, it isn't like each country is going to share advances. This research holds enormous potential to gain exclusive patent rights on a number of possible medical cures. It's a sad state of affairs that advances have been made in countries like France, Japan, and even Iran and we have been left behind because our political discourse on the science has been hijacked by religious ideologies and dogmas.

This is the first decision made by the Obama administration thus far that I agree 100% with.
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I am not informed enough on the subject to verify his claims on the +5 for adult stem cell and zero for embryonic stem cells. If true though, it is absurd to correlate this in some way to Bush's ban on federal spending for embryonic stem cell research. What country you ask? If they are the Holy Grail that they are claimed to be there are plenty of companies that pour money into the research in countries all around the world..Israel, Germany, Japan, or for that matter any 3rd world country that a private enterprise wants to set up shop to find their great discoveries.

This is about the 1,350th decison from this know nothing that I disagree with.
 
#79
#79
rjd970 said:
What other country in the world can put the resources and money towards it the U.S. could have? I'm seriously asking, because it seems to me we have the monopoly on medical talent and money...and even if the entire world was working on it, it isn't like each country is going to share advances. This research holds enormous potential to gain exclusive patent rights on a number of possible medical cures. It's a sad state of affairs that advances have been made in countries like France, Japan, and even Iran and we have been left behind because our political discourse on the science has been hijacked by religious ideologies and dogmas.

This is the first decision made by the Obama administration thus far that I agree 100% with.
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Federalized healthcare makes all the commentary about patents moot.
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#80
#80
rjd970 said:
It's a sad state of affairs that advances have been made in countries like France, Japan, and even Iran and we have been left behind because our political discourse on the science has been hijacked by religious ideologies and dogmas.
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What is this about? Are there medical treatments I am unaware of that have been developed but stay contained within the walls of the country they were developed in? How exactly have you been left behind. If someone else develops it I bet you get to still use it.
 
#81
#81
allvol123 said:
I am not informed enough on the subject to verify his claims on the +5 for adult stem cell and zero for embryonic stem cells. If true though, it is absurd to correlate this in some way to Bush's ban on federal spending for embryonic stem cell research. What country you ask? If they are the Holy Grail that they are claimed to be there are plenty of companies that pour money into the research in countries all around the world..Israel, Germany, Japan, or for that matter any 3rd world country that a private enterprise wants to set up shop to find their great discoveries.

This is about the 1,350th decison from this know nothing that I disagree with.
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No, it's absurd to think that a country as wealthy as ours subsidizing this research wouldn't make a difference in the resources made available to researchers, or promote investment by private enterprises. And it just isn't the funding, opening additional embyonic stem cell lines facilitates the movement forward as well. I would say the talent we have here with the backing of the government subsidation and private sector funding is the only way this research has a chance to come through with its stated promises.

Every opportunity and advantage should have been afforded this research. That is precisely what Obama did with this executive order.
 
#82
#82
allvol123 said:
What is this about? Are there medical treatments I am unaware of that have been developed but stay contained within the walls of the country they were developed in? How exactly have you been left behind. If someone else develops it I bet you get to still use it.
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You completely lost my point. Of course we will get to use it, but instead of us doing the selling, we will be doing the buying of these treatments. Not only is there the potential of curing many afflictions, but there could be a lot of money made too. Last time I checked, American pharmaceutical companies weren't giving their drugs away for free.
 
#84
#84
rjd970 said:
No, it's absurd to think that a country as wealthy as ours subsidizing this research wouldn't make a difference in the resources made available to researchers, or promote investment by private enterprises. And it just isn't the funding, opening additional embyonic stem cell lines facilitates the movement forward as well. I would say the talent we have here with the backing of the government subsidation and private sector funding is the only way this research has a chance to come through with its stated promises.

Every opportunity and advantage should have been afforded this research. That is precisely what Obama did with this executive order.
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This is downright silly. So your contention is that these cells hold unbelievable potential, correct? But yet the potential is not unbelievable enough for the research to be conducted outside the bubble of the US with any matter of intensity. That makes absolutely no sense.

AGAIN, Bush's ban on federal spending on embryonic stem cell research in the US should have had an almost zero effect on research of this nature in the rest of the world.

Of course you are right though. The only chances for these miracle cells to amount to anything rely on the US. But not just the US, a US that subsidizes the research. Wow, what potential.
 
#85
#85
rjd970 said:
You completely lost my point. Of course we will get to use it, but instead of us doing the selling, we will be doing the buying of these treatments. Not only is there the potential of curing many afflictions, but there could be a lot of money made too. Last time I checked, American pharmaceutical companies weren't giving their drugs away for free.
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I've certainly lost your point in the above post. Does not matter where it is developed, if you need it you will be the buyer. You will never be the seller unless you own some research or drug company I am unaware of.

So now it is about money? Thought it was about how Bush inhibited the ability for anyone in this world to show success with embryonic stem cells.
 
#86
#86
rjd970 said:
How so?
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What's the value as the give wets pricing and dictates who can get the treatment.

Dontknow how well you know the industry, butvtheae researc outfits have to make their money in the US, as they can't recoup enough of a return anywhere else to justify the R&D expenditures.
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#87
#87
allvol123 said:
This is downright silly. So your contention is that these cells hold unbelievable potential, correct? But yet the potential is not unbelievable enough for the research to be conducted outside the bubble of the US with any matter of intensity. That makes absolutely no sense.

AGAIN, Bush's ban on federal spending on embryonic stem cell research in the US should have had an almost zero effect on research of this nature in the rest of the world.

Of course you are right though. The only chances for these miracle cells to amount to anything rely on the US. But not just the US, a US that subsidizes the research. Wow, what potential.
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Uranium held unbelievable potential to be used as an atomic weapon and energy source, do you see this technology being developed without government backing? Germany worked on this technology before and during WWII with the intensity you suggest and it got them nowhere. I'm sure private enterprises and foreign governments would have been more than capable of producing such a weapon, no?

And before you come back with its a bad analogy, I understand there are differences. Of course, this is a different scale altogether and the atomic program was funded almost exclusively by the government. But the points to note are the scientific talent and capital the U.S. posseses, and the resources that can be put behind it. Using your rationale, we would expect every country in the world to have developed atomic technology.
 
#88
#88
allvol123 said:
I've certainly lost your point in the above post. Does not matter where it is developed, if you need it you will be the buyer. You will never be the seller unless you own some research or drug company I am unaware of.

So now it is about money? Thought it was about how Bush inhibited the ability for anyone in this world to show success with embryonic stem cells.
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Obviously you have lost the point of not just the above post.

My contention from the beginning of this thread is this research makes sense from both a financial and humanitarian point of view and Bush hindered its potential by limiting both the research itself, and the monetary resources put behind it.

And I mean "us" as in a nation, not me individually.
 
#89
#89
rjd970 said:
Uranium held unbelievable potential to be used as an atomic weapon and energy source, do you see this technology being developed without government backing? Germany worked on this technology before and during WWII with the intensity you suggest and it got them nowhere. I'm sure private enterprises and foreign governments would have been more than capable of producing such a weapon, no?

And before you come back with its a bad analogy, I understand there are differences. Of course, this is a different scale altogether and the atomic program was funded almost exclusively by the government. But the points to note are the scientific talent and capital the U.S. posseses, and the resources that can be put behind it. Using your rationale, we would expect every country in the world to have developed atomic technology.
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Exactly. They would have. We did it first, that in no way means it would not have been accomplished had we not been the ones to do it. It most certainly would have been. Thus, the idea that no successes in embryonic stem cell research is due to Bush's spending ban is a fail again.
 
#90
#90
rjd970 said:
My contention from the beginning of this thread is this research makes sense from both a financial and humanitarian point of view and Bush hindered its potential by limiting both the research itself, and the monetary resources put behind it.
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Your contention with your point 1 is that the lack of success shown with embryonic stem cells was due to Bush's veto. That is flat out wrong. There are people all over this world working on this stuff. Stem cell research does not exist in the bubble known as the US.
 
#91
#91
I think that there was really very little private industry funding of stem cell research...it is simply too far out, and the R&D portfolio of companies isn't going to contain that kind of research in appreciable quantities. I would say that most funding of stem cell research was being made by private foundations - and that money is very limited. The US government placing a portion of its biotech research money into this issue could unlock breakthroughs in a considerably shorter time period that what would have been accomplished with the level of private funding that was being put into the research before Obama's executive order.

The biotech boom grew on the backs of scientists like Herb Boyer who cut their teeth and made their breakthroughs with federally funded bio research. Then entered Swanson with the business model and things bloomed for Genentech...but it wouldn't have been ready for that without the groundwork laid by federal investment. Federal investment has a role here, IMO.
 
#92
#92
BigPapaVol said:
What's the value as the give wets pricing and dictates who can get the treatment.

Dontknow how well you know the industry, butvtheae researc outfits have to make their money in the US, as they can't recoup enough of a return anywhere else to justify the R&D expenditures.
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I don't see how the government can dictate prices for anything ranging from pharmacuetical drugs to heart transplants anymore than insurance companies can now. I have a suspicion that those with good insurance like myself are going to want to keep it because the government plan will be crap. I can see them pushing for only generic drugs and not letting people choose the doctor they want. If you opt for the government care, it's your own fault. I think there is going to be plenty of people with good insurance that these research outfits can make money from. Today, they certainly aren't getting it from those that will need to get federalized healthcare. This is why I didn't like McCain's either, because he was going to actually tax my employer provided coverage to provide discounted coverage for everybody else, having a more direct that you are talking about.

I think Obama's healthcare initiatives are crap, but I am going to get to keep my own insurance under his plan, and I won't have the government deciding my treatment anymore than they do now.
 
#93
#93
Hey, anytime you can trot out some deathly sick individual or someone in a wheelchair and make people believe you're fixing it has got to be good for the business of politics.
 
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#94
#94
TennTradition said:
I think that there was really very little private industry funding of stem cell research...it is simply too far out, and the R&D portfolio of companies isn't going to contain that kind of research in appreciable quantities. I would say that most funding of stem cell research was being made by private foundations - and that money is very limited. The US government placing a portion of its biotech research money into this issue could unlock breakthroughs in a considerably shorter time period that what would have been accomplished with the level of private funding that was being put into the research before Obama's executive order.

The biotech boom grew on the backs of scientists like Herb Boyer who cut their teeth and made their breakthroughs with federally funded bio research. Then entered Swanson with the business model and things bloomed for Genentech...but it wouldn't have been ready for that without the groundwork laid by federal investment. Federal investment has a role here, IMO.
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The biotech boom happened when enormous piles of private equity swarmed into the arena. That's how it goes from gov't boondoggle to commercially viable. Without enormous ROI projections, that investor class ain't showing up because too many of the projects fail.
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#95
#95
BigPapaVol said:
The biotech boom happened when enormous piles of private equity swarmed into the arena. That's how it goes from gov't boondoggle to commercially viable. Without enormous ROI projections, that investor class ain't showing up because too many of the projects fail.
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I was not trying to say anything otherwise (thus my comment about Swanson...he was a former VC guy). My point is that the ROI is not demonstrated without groundwork being laid...and my (limited) experience suggests that federal investment has been critical to laying that groundwork when others aren't willing to accept the risk.
 
#96
#96
TennTradition said:
I think that there was really very little private industry funding of stem cell research...it is simply too far out, and the R&D portfolio of companies isn't going to contain that kind of research in appreciable quantities. I would say that most funding of stem cell research was being made by private foundations - and that money is very limited. The US government placing a portion of its biotech research money into this issue could unlock breakthroughs in a considerably shorter time period that what would have been accomplished with the level of private funding that was being put into the research before Obama's executive order.

The biotech boom grew on the backs of scientists like Herb Boyer who cut their teeth and made their breakthroughs with federally funded bio research. Then entered Swanson with the business model and things bloomed for Genentech...but it wouldn't have been ready for that without the groundwork laid by federal investment. Federal investment has a role here, IMO.
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Well said. You're getting the point across better than I am.
 
#97
#97
TennTradition said:
I was not trying to say anything otherwise (thus my comment about Swanson...he was a former VC guy). My point is that the ROI is not demonstrated without groundwork being laid...and my (limited) experience suggests that federal investment has been critical to laying that groundwork when others aren't willing to accept the risk.
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And I'm saying that capital doesn't come at all as gov't dictates pricing. The ROIs just don't work for the private equity or VC world.
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#98
#98
BigPapaVol said:
And I'm saying that capital doesn't come at all as gov't dictates pricing. The ROIs just don't work for the private equity or VC world.
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You're saying this in the context of the federalized health care, right? I was not making my comments in that context or referring to that portion of the discussion...perhaps I should have clearer..I was just trying to address the issue of private vs. federal investment and how I see their roles. I agree that federalized health care could and will likely provide a disincentive for private investment in biomedical research.
 
#99
#99
TennTradition said:
I think that there was really very little private industry funding of stem cell research...it is simply too far out, and the R&D portfolio of companies isn't going to contain that kind of research in appreciable quantities. I would say that most funding of stem cell research was being made by private foundations - and that money is very limited. The US government placing a portion of its biotech research money into this issue could unlock breakthroughs in a considerably shorter time period that what would have been accomplished with the level of private funding that was being put into the research before Obama's executive order.

The biotech boom grew on the backs of scientists like Herb Boyer who cut their teeth and made their breakthroughs with federally funded bio research. Then entered Swanson with the business model and things bloomed for Genentech...but it wouldn't have been ready for that without the groundwork laid by federal investment. Federal investment has a role here, IMO.
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Don;t pretend that would amount to only chicken feed. I bet it is more in the several hundred million dollar range.
 
#100
#100
TennTradition said:
You're saying this in the context of the federalized health care, right? I was not making my comments in that context or referring to that portion of the discussion...perhaps I should have clearer..I was just trying to address the issue of private vs. federal investment and how I see their roles. I agree that federalized health care could and will likely provide a disincentive for private investment in biomedical research.
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yes. I'm saying the US is the lone market where these companies make the returns that justify the enormous investments. Fixing pricing here puts a hurt on medical innovation, period.
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