You think hiring a proven HC doesn't matter?

[VolMax]

Remember when only me and a few others wanted Mullen 10 months ago? Yeah, good times

Do I remember hearing that Mullen was pretty much a done deal until UF called?

 

[MAUSERWERKE]

While UF definitely sets him up via the resources. However, his coaching also allows him to make things better quicker than average. One thing he proved is that he didn't have to the 4/5 stars to compete with anyone, while also developing talent across the board. Butch couldn't do that.

Good point.

 

[rocytop2624]

I don't want Mullen! I am happy with what we got he knows what it takes to win in the sec so give him time. I never want another gimick coach again and that's what Mullen is.

 

[chargervol]

Its interesting how Florida has had two 4 win seasons under 2 different coaches and have been able to bounce back both times pretty much immediately. also, since 1990, every UF coach except Zook (Spurrier, Meyer, Muschamp and McElwain) were able to reach double digit wins by no later than year 2 and it may be presumptuous, but it looks like Mullin may be able to pull it off in year 1 if everything keeps going like it is now. All of those coaches took over mediocre to bad Florida teams. Meanwhile UT had its first 4 win season in program history.

Florida's recruiting ranks per Rivals look like this:

2019 (so far): 25 vs UT 10
2018: 17 vs UT 20
2017: 9 vs UT 15
2016: 14 vs UT 15
2015: 23 vs UT 5
2014: 8 vs UT 5

UF isn't out recruiting UT over time and when they do its by a small amount. So the idea that Florida has access to (and is actually getting) all this talent that UT somehow doesnt have access to is balony.

Since 1990, UF has had 6 coaches and UT has had 6 coaches.
Since 2000, UF has had 6 coaches and UT has had 5 coaches.
Since 2010, UF has had 4 coaches and UT has had 3 coaches.
In the last 10 seasons both teams have had 4 coaches and...
UF has had only 1 coach for more than 3 complete seasons since Spurrier left.

So the idea that UT is hampered more than other schools because of coaching instability and turnover is also balony.

Is it money?
Well, Mullen makes a little over 4 mil. McElwain made pretty much the same. Muschamp barely made it to 3 mill.
Comparitively, Pruitt is making just under 4 mil. Lyle made just over 4 mil . Dooley is the lone standout. He was paid more to leave UT that was paid to coach there..lol But we also found Dooley hanging around the dumpster behind Ferris hall and gave him the head coaching job after Lane bolted.

Bottom line though is that the money each school commits to coaching is not out of sync with one another.

So, if it isn't recruits, it isnt coaching turnover and it isnt moeny, what then is it? And why do people make these excuses for UT that they've been put into this hisorically unprecidented position that they cant possibly overcome quickly with the right guy at the helm? Why is it unrealistic to expect a good coach can turn things around pretty much immediately? Florida has had no magic bullet. No secret to success that is somehow unattainable at any other school. As far as I can see, they just have the expectation to win and win now (both the fan base and the Administration).

Rankings are only as good as the system the players are ranked for. We didn't recruit for smashmouth, SEC football to begin with but it was made much, much worse by the lack of size and strength development.

Won't take anything away from Mullen, he's too good of a coach. But he did at least start with SEC capable players, even when they were lower ranked.
That's not an endorsement or call for patience with Pruitt, he may suck for all I know. Just that a couple 4 stars could each shine at different programs but not if they swapped teams.

 

[sjt18]

So every great coach coached great in their first season? Dude your analogies are beyond hilarious. People can demand greatness all they want. The fact is, football is a team sport that requires coaching and player execution to be successful. If either one is subpar, then mediocrity and failure ensue.

Yes. Great coaches, coach great. They're always improving or honing their craft as well unlike Fulmer who became complacent after the NC. It doesn't always reflect in wins. Sometimes there are notable losses like Saban's first year loss to ULM. But the "rebels" on Saban's first team pretty quickly saw the light or saw the door. What the great coach brings is consistent and at a high level. They know the game and coach it with excellence regardless of what kind of players they have. The players get the same level of great coaching whether they're scrubs or All Americans.

You want lots of wins and championships? You have to have great players and great coaching. I'll be honest enough at this point to say that either UT's talent is overrated or Pruitt has a ways to go to become a great coach. Maybe he's learning... but his curve better be pretty steep if he wants to survive.... and I "like him" better than any HC UT has had since Fulmer.

As far as the "analogy" is concerned... You were talking about the comparison to UF? Perfectly valid comparison in the context of my response. Squib suggested UT fans were idiots who expected too much causing Mullens to go to UF. I simply pointed out that the "idiots" at UF are so understanding and tolerant that they booted a coach who was 22-12 when fired having won the SEC East in his first two years. The "idiotic" thing is that many if not most UT fans would have been excusing McElwain if he'd done the same at UT. It took 5 years of underperformance and incompetence for many to finally wake up to Jones.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Yes. Great coaches, coach great. They're always improving or honing their craft as well unlike Fulmer who became complacent after the NC. It doesn't always reflect in wins. Sometimes there are notable losses like Saban's first year loss to ULM. But the "rebels" on Saban's first team pretty quickly saw the light or saw the door. What the great coach brings is consistent and at a high level. They know the game and coach it with excellence regardless of what kind of players they have. The players get the same level of great coaching whether they're scrubs or All Americans.

You want lots of wins and championships? You have to have great players and great coaching. I'll be honest enough at this point to say that either UT's talent is overrated or Pruitt has a ways to go to become a great coach. Maybe he's learning... but his curve better be pretty steep if he wants to survive.... and I "like him" better than any HC UT has had since Fulmer.

As far as the "analogy" is concerned... You were talking about the comparison to UF? Perfectly valid comparison in the context of my response. Squib suggested UT fans were idiots who expected too much causing Mullens to go to UF. I simply pointed out that the "idiots" at UF are so understanding and tolerant that they booted a coach who was 22-12 when fired having won the SEC East in his first two years. The "idiotic" thing is that many if not most UT fans would have been excusing McElwain if he'd done the same at UT. It took 5 years of underperformance and incompetence for many to finally wake up to Jones.

You said great coaches coach great from day 1. That depeneds very largely on their experience level, talent and where they are coaching at. If a coach comes to a program having a great winning record with championships, then its more than likely they will be great much sooner. But we all know thats not always the case.

No great coach is winning at a high rate, especially championships without great talent. Sorry, it just doesnt work that way. Were UT fans idiots for expecting too much? Absolutely. But you said yo have to demand better. So which is it? I personally think many UT fans are idiotic because they are expecting a rookie HC with a rookie OC and DC to produce much. This team went 4-8 last year with an experienced HC. Also factor in the talent gap. If a UT fan cannot see the vast differences between our team and vurtually every other team just in the SEC, then they need their eyes checked. Also, even speaking the words great coach when talking about Pruitt is foolish. He may end up being one. But you are right, he yas a long way to go. And you say his curve should be steep, so I assume you are one who thinks if we dont see the major improvement by year 2, then he likely isnt the guy right? If so, then that is equally foolish.

 

[KBVol]

I think the point is that one would have more faith in Frost.and Kelly to turn the program around instead of a coach that has yet to win an FBS game.

No, the point is that the claim the OP made about “proven coaches” very often doesn’t hold up. Ton of “unproven” coaches historically have had great success and there are currently a handful of “proven” coaches who are utterly atrocious at the moment. His attempted shot at Pruitt doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Do I remember hearing that Mullen was pretty much a done deal until UF called?

Eh I doubt it. This past coaching search was one of the dumbest things I have seen in colkege football. It was reported there were offers to coaches like Gundy and Leach. But I highly doubt they were ever legit offers. I believe for Currie, it was Schiano or nothing. Mullen? Was it a done deal? I dont buy it.

 

[Firebirdparts]

If im not mistake most "real fan" wanted and thought we were getting Gruden. As a matter of fact, there were dedicated threads averaging about 4000 post a day about it.

I haven't take a poll, but I think saying "most Tennessee fans thought we were getting Gruden" is just another way of beating the drum that Tennessee fans are all inbred idiots. My opinion. Personally I haven't had anybody ever tell me they thought Tennessee would hire Gruden. Those threads were funny, and had probably 500,000 posts, but really only a handful or people were involved in that.

 

[butchna]

Pruitt was like our 27th choice as head coach. He wasnt even considered by the administration as a possibility until we freaking fired our AD in the middle of a coaching search. So I think its wholly realistic that many people were not thrilled with the hire.

Maybe he turns out to be the second coming of Saban, but that doesnt mean that people's initial impression of the hire were unfounded.

This is way overdone...USUALLY by outsiders. I know you’re exaggerating on this number, but to play along...who were the 26 before Pruitt to TURN US DOWN? If you even make lip motions of Schiano, your list is bogus. We never offered Kelly, Patterson, Peterson, Frost or Gruden...so they can’t be categorized as “choices”. The Brohm deal is confusing. If Currie/Davenport had been on the same page, I believe he would have accepted an offer...if there was one. Assuming there was, we were legitimately turned down by Mullen, Brohm, Gundy and Cutcliffe. Doeren’s agent had him booked before the mini-Schiano so he did the smart thing and is now killin it. Leach would’ve paid US to coach here fwiw. But I understand. Four doesn’t sell a narrative like 27 does.

 

[butchna]

You can't say stuff around here like that. The expectation is that you cant even have bad thoughts about a coach until after year 3.LOL

Yet you stand on that wall and bad thought like a mofo!

 

[chargervol]

This is way overdone...USUALLY by outsiders. I know you’re exaggerating on this number, but to play along...who were the 26 before Pruitt to TURN US DOWN? If you even make lip motions of Schiano, your list is bogus. We never offered Kelly, Patterson, Peterson, Frost or Gruden...so they can’t be categorized as “choices”. The Brohm deal is confusing. If Currie/Davenport had been on the same page, I believe he would have accepted an offer...if there was one. Assuming there was, we were legitimately turned down by Mullen, Brohm, Gundy and Cutcliffe. Doeren’s agent had him booked before the mini-Schiano so he did the smart thing and is now killin it. Leach would’ve paid US to coach here fwiw. But I understand. Four doesn’t sell a narrative like 27 does.

Never followed up on the Brohm thing, did he turn us down? Or did something else happen during talks?

 

[butchna]

Never followed up on the Brohm thing, did he turn us down? Or did something else happen during talks?

May never really know...all we got is Hyams.

 

[JMSqb11]

Do I remember hearing that Mullen was pretty much a done deal until UF called?

Depending on who you ask, Kelly was about 90% done to sign with Florida. Had that happened, Currie apparently had Mullen locked and loaded to come to Rocky Top. Believe there were transcripts of Currie’s twitter DM’s somewhere with Mullen.

Mullen was always going to leave Starkville after last year. And I 100% believe it was down to Florida or UT. Florida had much better coaches to pick from over UT.

Florida wanted, in order, Frost, Kelly, Mullen.

Once Frost decided on going home, UF put the press on Kelly and that didn’t work out. Once it was clear they struck out, Mullen was waiting.

What’s crazy is had Kelly or Frost not gone their way, Currie lands Mullen and is still employed

I 100% believe Mullen to UT was real if, and only if, the Kelly/Frost domino’s didn’t fall. Currie had to like his odds to land Mullen. That’s why I think the panic that led to him going after Schiano happened.

 

[volfannbama]

No, the point is that the claim the OP made about “proven coaches” very often doesn’t hold up. Ton of “unproven” coaches historically have had great success and there are currently a handful of “proven” coaches who are utterly atrocious at the moment. His attempted shot at Pruitt doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

Kelly and frost to a lesser extent have proven they can win in fbs. All coaches start out as unproven coaches at some point so that not really debatable. I.think the op believes that tennessee is a good enough job that it should be able to pull a proven coach and that unproven coaches at tennessee havent really faired well. Id argue frost is sort of like Butch Jones, in that most of his time he played lower competition. The only really big win he had was auburn. Personally, tennessee should be able to pull a top tier coach, however, the entire administration is a complete disaster, so it cant..

 

[volfannbama]

I haven't take a poll, but I think saying "most Tennessee fans thought we were getting Gruden" is just another way of beating the drum that Tennessee fans are all inbred idiots. My opinion. Personally I haven't had anybody ever tell me they thought Tennessee would hire Gruden. Those threads were funny, and had probably 500,000 posts, but really only a handful or people were involved in that.

I didnt say most tennessee fans......I said "real fans" meaning the posters on vn that consider themselves the only real fans here and anyone that disagrees with them isnt a real fan.

 

[chargervol]

We've definitely had some failed unproven coaches but Neyland and Fulmer were unproven also.
There just is no clear determining factor.

Personal opinion: Kelly will not repeat his prior success. It was based on a system that is now very defendable.

 

[butchna]

I didnt say most tennessee fans......I said "real fans" meaning the posters on vn that consider themselves the only real fans here and anyone that disagrees with them isnt a real fan.

So YOU and...?

 

[butchna]

We've definitely had some failed unproven coaches but Neyland and Fulmer were unproven also.
There just is no clear determining factor.

Personal opinion: Kelly will not repeat his prior success. It was based on a system that is now very defendable.

NFL makes you adjust every season and they wrote the book on him. Combine that with him being a hermit and mediocre recruiter and you get this season’s UCLA team...and it’s not an anomaly.

 

[Orangeredblooded]

We've definitely had some failed unproven coaches but Neyland and Fulmer were unproven also.
There just is no clear determining factor.

Personal opinion: Kelly will not repeat his prior success. It was based on a system that is now very defendable.

Not to beat the same drum, saying that Fulmer and Pruitt are and were unproven when hired, isn’t going to change the minds of the ones that post over and over that we should have, could have gotten a “proven” coach. Personally, I think Frost is a up incoming coach. Wasn’t sold on on him coming out of UCF so early.

 

[sjt18]

You said great coaches coach great from day 1. That depeneds very largely on their experience level, talent and where they are coaching at.

An inexperienced coach may grow into a great coach if they aren't one. Talent has nothing to do with a coach's ability. A great coach gets the most of that talent. Guys like Jones... don't. Where they're coaching may factor into success but has nothing to do with how well they coach. Meyer was a great coach at Bowling Green... then at Utah... UTAH for heaven's sake. Saban… became a great coach. He wasn't all that great when he started at MSU and it wasn't just the talent.

If a coach comes to a program having a great winning record with championships, then its more than likely they will be great much sooner. But we all know thats not always the case.

You are either missing the point or else being purposefully disagreeable for some other reason. Les Miles' circumstances made him successful for a while. He was NEVER a great coach.

No great coach is winning at a high rate, especially championships without great talent. Sorry, it just doesnt work that way.

You indicated with this statement that you DO understand that a guy can be a great coach and not succeed due to talent. The point is... he doesn't stop being a great coach. A great coach gets 6 wins out of a 4 win roster... just like a Butch Jones gets 8 wins out of an 11 win roster.

Were UT fans idiots for expecting too much? Absolutely. But you said yo have to demand better.

No. I said the idiots were the ones who think "patience" with guys like Jones or McElwain will somehow make them better. It isn't NOT idiotic to have high standards and expectations. It is historically stupid to think you get great results with low expectations.

I personally think many UT fans are idiotic because they are expecting a rookie HC with a rookie OC and DC to produce much. This team went 4-8 last year with an experienced HC. Also factor in the talent gap. If a UT fan cannot see the vast differences between our team and vurtually every other team just in the SEC, then they need their eyes checked. Also, even speaking the words great coach when talking about Pruitt is foolish. He may end up being one. But you are right, he yas a long way to go. And you say his curve should be steep, so I assume you are one who thinks if we dont see the major improvement by year 2, then he likely isnt the guy right? If so, then that is equally foolish.

Umm, you can call it "foolish" if you want but the fact still remains that if a guy does not start showing some signs by year 3... the players stop buying the promises of better times schtick. That's exactly what happened to Jones. It happens all over the place. There's always a new coach who can sell "I'm here to turn things around and will give you a chance to play right away". UT isn't the only program that has that.

If Pruitt doesn't start winning by year three it doesn't really matter what his potential is. He won't be able to get the players that you started out by saying were critical to success. It isn't fair. It isn't a "nice" profession where you competition helps you and gives you the time you need to figure things out.

 

[Odiodin]

Only reason we did not beat UF 4 straight years was Butch Jones. UF just beat LSU.
They are 5 -1 and 3 -1 in the SEC. I guess UF was loaded to begin this year?
Looks like they do not have to wait 4 years to turn it around.
I am not throwing JP under the bus. This is aimed at the UT decision makers.
You get what you pay for and UT is just not willing to do that.

If you would rather have Mullen then you're stupid.

Pruitt will have growing pains because he has never been head coach. I don't like it, but we don't know what he can do yet.

I know what Mullen's ceiling is though, and I'm not impressed.

 

[Behr]

If you would rather have Mullen then you're stupid.

Pruitt will have growing pains because he has never been head coach. I don't like it, but we don't know what he can do yet.

I know what Mullen's ceiling is though, and I'm not impressed.

Well? I'm dying to know. But, how can you know that and not know the future of Pruitt?

 

[jakez4ut]

Well? I'm dying to know. But, how can you know that and not know the future of Pruitt?

 

[Volfan2012]

Sometimes it helps hiring a proven head coach and sometimes it doesn't. UCLA is 0 and 5 so sometimes it takes a coach and some players that have talent. Overall Tennessee is a talented team by SEC standards were not that talented. The teams we have lost to are 14 and 1 on the season and we got a game coming up against the team that one of those teams lost to.