Coach Butch Jones,how long a leash does he have ?

#201
#201
ajvol01 said:
You're indicting Jones based on Dooley recruits that he had 9 weeks and 1 assistant coach (Graham) to keep committed.
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No. I have actually said numerous times that Dooley set him up bad. But the guys I mentioned were among those that Jones either won (particularly Carr) or decided to keep.

Dooley gets all the credit for 2010 class that Kiffin recruited even though Chaney & Lance Thompson were retained from LK's staff.
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IMO, he doesn't. Several of the best players in that class were EE's. If they were trapped that class would have fallen apart.

It is interesting to consider 2010 as a Kiffin class and 2013 as a Dooley class - gives me even more faith in the future of Vol football under Butch.
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Faith is nice and maybe you can call me jaded... but I want to see RESULTS! And as much as I want to feel good about the many positives that seem to be going on... There were still several games in '13 where this staff looked outclassed beyond any real difference in talent. Obviously I'm NOT drawing a final judgment that he's the wrong guy... I'm just refusing to drink the koolaid. I'm not ready to say he IS the guy either.

I want to see consistent coaching performances like we saw vs USCe and UGA... and NONE like what we saw vs Oregon, VU, and USA and others if you want to add them.
 
#202
#202
ajvol01 said:
Not sure what the "norm" is, but the attrition numbers for 2011 and 2012 recruits not final yet.

Running totals below for 2010-2012

2012 Attrition: 9/22 (41%, 3.33 Star average)

Deion Bonner 4 stars
Davante Bourque 4 stars
Daniel Gray 3 stars
Alden Hill 3 stars
Justin Meredith 3 stars
Dante Phillips 4 stars
Darrington Sentimore 3 stars
Trent Taylor 3 stars
Quenshaun Watson 3 stars


2011 Attrition: 11/27 (41%, 3.36 star average)

DeAnthony Arnett 4 stars
Cameron Clear 4 stars
Maurice Couch 4 stars
Vincent Dallas 3 stars
Izauea Lanier 4 stars
Pat Martin 4 stars
Alan Posey 3 stars
Tom Smith 3 stars
Tino Thomas 3 stars
Allan Carson 2 stars
Christian Harris 3 stars

2010 Attrition: 11/27 (41%, 3.42 Star average), *Failed to qualify: 4/27 (15%, 3.75 Star average)

John Brown 4 stars *
Dave Clark 4 stars *
Raiques Crump 2 stars
Marcques Dixon 3 stars *
Channing Fugate 3 stars
Martaze Jackson 3 stars
Eddrick Loften 4 stars *
Ted Meline 4 stars
Matt Milton 4 stars
Nash Nance 2 stars
Da'Rick Rogers 5 stars

EDIT: Added Allan Carson & Christian Harris to 2011
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Bump for daj

Just curious - is 41% attrition of signed recruits within the norm of the SEC and NCAA?
 
#203
#203
CBJ has a minimum of 3 years. If we don't go bowling this year, either Jancek or Bajakian has to be GONE. If he doesn't make a bowl game his 3rd season, he GONE. He has to play catch-up because he didn't get a bowl last season. If we had gone bowling, his minimum would have been 4.
 
#204
#204
Dougie_D said:
CBJ has a minimum of 3 years. If we don't go bowling this year, either Jancek or Bajakian has to be GONE. If he doesn't make a bowl game his 3rd season, he GONE. He has to play catch-up because he didn't get a bowl last season. If we had gone bowling, his minimum would have been 4.
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Changing coordinators in a critical year worked great for us with Clawson and Sunseri :crazy:
 
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#205
#205
Dougie_D said:
CBJ has a minimum of 3 years. If we don't go bowling this year, either Jancek or Bajakian has to be GONE. If he doesn't make a bowl game his 3rd season, he GONE. He has to play catch-up because he didn't get a bowl last season. If we had gone bowling, his minimum would have been 4.
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What if both sides of the ball are vastly improved but it doesn't show in the record?

For example, rather than losing to a top 5 team like Oregon on the road 59-14, we lose to a top 5 Okla on the road 28-27 on a last second 50 yd field goal. What if rather than lose to Alabama 45-10 we lose 31-30?

What if we score many more points, gain many more yards, give up fewer points and cause more turnovers but still lose 7 games and miss a bowl game again? Is it still automatic that we fire either or both Coordinators?
 
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#207
#207
ajvol01 said:
Changing coordinators in a critical year worked great for us with Clawson and Sunseri :crazy:
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Changing Coordinators is not as bad a people think, unless you get the WRONG coordinator.

Bama has had 3 OC's in 7 seasons by the way. It will be their 4th with Kiffin. And he is most likely to jump ship next year!
 
#208
#208
KBVol said:
What if both sides of the ball are vastly improved but it doesn't show in the record?

For example, rather than losing to a top 5 team like Oregon on the road 59-14, we lose to a top 5 Okla on the road 28-27 on a last second 50 yd field goal. What if rather than lose to Alabama 45-10 we lose 31-30?

What if we score many more points, gain many more yards, give up fewer points and cause more turnovers but still lose 7 games and miss a bowl game again? Is it still automatic that we fire either or both Coordinators?
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YES. The Goal is to get a bowl game regardless of those numbers IMO. We are here to WIN, and not have close games in general.
 
#209
#209
KBVol said:
What if both sides of the ball are vastly improved but it doesn't show in the record?

For example, rather than losing to a top 5 team like Oregon on the road 59-14, we lose to a top 5 Okla on the road 28-27 on a last second 50 yd field goal. What if rather than lose to Alabama 45-10 we lose 31-30?

What if we score many more points, gain many more yards, give up fewer points and cause more turnovers but still lose 7 games and miss a bowl game again? Is it still automatic that we fire either or both Coordinators?
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This!

So many people simply look at W/L record without looking deeper into it.

I've said several times that the most telling sign for improvement will be the losses and the margin of those losses. As KB said, I'd be more impressed by a 31-30 loss to Bama and a 28-27 loss to Oklahoma than a 30 point win over Ark St. or UTC.

So UT could be 5-7 and significantly better than 2013 and they could be 7-6 without showing improvement. Beating USU, Ark. St., UTC, UK, Vandy, and Mizzou but getting hammered by OU, Bama, UGA, USC, and UF isn't showing improvement.
 
#210
#210
KBVol said:
What if both sides of the ball are vastly improved but it doesn't show in the record?

For example, rather than losing to a top 5 team like Oregon on the road 59-14, we lose to a top 5 Okla on the road 28-27 on a last second 50 yd field goal. What if rather than lose to Alabama 45-10 we lose 31-30?

What if we score many more points, gain many more yards, give up fewer points and cause more turnovers but still lose 7 games and miss a bowl game again? Is it still automatic that we fire either or both Coordinators?
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It shouldn't be. Progress may not show up in the win column till next year, just has you've pointed out. We have a very tough schedule and a bowl game will not come easy. If we can make it to a bowl it will be the turning point for sure.
 
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#211
#211
Last season, Mississippi St. made it to a bowl game by beating:

Alcorn State
Troy
Bowling Green
UK
Ark
Ole Miss - decent win

There is nothing impressive about these 6 wins BUT they made it to a bowl and hammered Rice. They did play Auburn and Bama close but the other losses weren't very pretty.
 
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#213
#213
KBVol said:
What if both sides of the ball are vastly improved but it doesn't show in the record?

For example, rather than losing to a top 5 team like Oregon on the road 59-14, we lose to a top 5 Okla on the road 28-27 on a last second 50 yd field goal. What if rather than lose to Alabama 45-10 we lose 31-30?

What if we score many more points, gain many more yards, give up fewer points and cause more turnovers but still lose 7 games and miss a bowl game again? Is it still automatic that we fire either or both Coordinators?
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I don't necessarily think anyone would get fired for that... but they still would have lost to someone who has less talent on their roster. I'd estimate one but Daj's numbers say they would have lost to 3 with less talent.

IIRC, he or someone else did an analysis of the likely starting line ups and came up with pretty much the same conclusion... so Dooley's classes were factored out of that.

My bottom line point being that any HC and staff hired by UT can only be given 3 years to prove they are the right hires. UT doesn't need an "average" staff that gets 5 wins out of a 6-7 win roster even if they look good in some of the others. They need a staff that gets 8-10 wins out of a 7 win roster and eventually compete for championships by developing and coaching players better than teams that still have a little more raw talent.
 
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#214
#214
Regardless of the W/L record this season, Butch's leash is significantly longer than Dooley's and rightfully so.

1st, he's embraced the alumni and fan base to create this "we're all in this together" feeling.

2nd, UT isn't in any financial situation to go through another carousel.

3rd, he's recruiting his tail off.

Butch is doing his part in the deal. He's doing everything off the field you want your head coach to do. NOW, he needs to take it to the field. I'll admit that I'm not a huge fan of all the slogans and stuff, but if the kids like it and react to it that's great. I'll get over it!

What I'm looking for is a team that competes for 60 minutes. Win or lose, I can deal with that. A big part of that is not going into a gun fight with a butter knife. That's would take its toll on Neyland, Rockne, or Bryant.
 
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#215
#215
Agree with almost everything you said Boca... but he still needs 6 wins and tangible signs of progress to keep recruits coming. Elite players want to play for elite coaches.
 
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#216
#216
sjt18 said:
Agree with almost everything you said Boca... but he still needs 6 wins and tangible signs of progress to keep recruits coming. Elite players want to play for elite coaches.
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I don't disagree. I still think improvement will be seen in the Bama, OU, UGA, USC, Ole Miss, and UF games. Not simply because they're the most difficult games on the table but can this team go on the road and compete? Can they hang around with Bama and OU?
 
#217
#217
Boca Vol said:
I don't disagree. I still think improvement will be seen in the Bama, OU, UGA, USC, Ole Miss, and UF games. Not simply because they're the most difficult games on the table but can this team go on the road and compete? Can they hang around with Bama and OU?
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I have the same feeling this year on the OU game that I had last year on the OR game. It is too early in the season for that kinda game to favor us. I really thought we should have bought out that game last year.
 
#218
#218
AndyMizunogolfer said:
I have the same feeling this year on the OU game that I had last year on the OR game. It is too early in the season for that kinda game to favor us. I really thought we should have bought out that game last year.
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If you aspire to be a great team you need to know where you stand against competition that's better than you. Judging by your name you play golf. Would you get significantly better playing 18 handicappers straight up vs. a touring pro? Sure you're going to get your butt kicked to start but eventually you'll get better playing the pro. You could beat the 18 handicapper blindfolded.
 
#219
#219
Dougie_D said:
CBJ has a minimum of 3 years. If we don't go bowling this year, either Jancek or Bajakian has to be GONE. If he doesn't make a bowl game his 3rd season, he GONE. He has to play catch-up because he didn't get a bowl last season. If we had gone bowling, his minimum would have been 4.
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Some people will never learn. Fire him in year 3..... THAT'S WHY UT IS IN THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! IF Hart fires Jones after his 3rd year....then tell me who the f*** will want to coach here after going through 4 coaches in under 10 years.....pure stupidity.
 
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#220
#220
Boca Vol said:
Regardless of the W/L record this season, Butch's leash is significantly longer than Dooley's and rightfully so.

1st, he's embraced the alumni and fan base to create this "we're all in this together" feeling.

2nd, UT isn't in any financial situation to go through another carousel.

3rd, he's recruiting his tail off.

Butch is doing his part in the deal. He's doing everything off the field you want your head coach to do. NOW, he needs to take it to the field. I'll admit that I'm not a huge fan of all the slogans and stuff, but if the kids like it and react to it that's great. I'll get over it!

What I'm looking for is a team that competes for 60 minutes. Win or lose, I can deal with that. A big part of that is not going into a gun fight with a butter knife. That's would take its toll on Neyland, Rockne, or Bryant.
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Who are you? And what did you do with the real Boca? :ermm:
 
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#223
#223
Boca Vol said:
If you aspire to be a great team you need to know where you stand against competition that's better than you. Judging by your name you play golf. Would you get significantly better playing 18 handicappers straight up vs. a touring pro? Sure you're going to get your butt kicked to start but eventually you'll get better playing the pro. You could beat the 18 handicapper blindfolded.
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You already play the best teams in the country in the SEC. There is no reason while rebuilding to play games like this. There is no benefit from it.
 
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