Z's Top 100 NBA Players of All Time

#77

hUTch2002

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#77
The Pistons team was very good but kinda overrated by history, TBH. If they didn't give Jordan such a hard time, they wouldn't be remembered much and conversely, Jordan is considered to be so good because he finally beat them. It's like this double dutch rudder of legacy building. Zeke is #30 to #40 all-time depending on what list you look at. Every other all-time great team post-merger has had a much better star. Dumars was a good star sidekick. The rest of the roster was role players
They had 3 HOF players plus Laimbeer, who was their Horace Grant. They were 2-time defending champs so I don’t agree they were overrated.
 
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#79

n_huffhines

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#79
They had 3 HOF players plus Laimbeer, who was there Horace Grant. They were 2-time defending champs so I don’t agree they were overrated.
They're held up as one of the all-time great teams but really compare them to the other greats, and it's no contest. Steph, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Lebron, and Shaq....those are all top 15 players, way out of Zeke's league and they all had at least as much help as Zeke. I don't see it.

I will take '91 Horace Grant all day over '91 Laimbeer. It's not even close, IMO. Laimbeer was an enforcer who could grind. Grant could do that but he could also handle the ball, he was a great passer, he could run like a mother...and Laimbeer was clearly on the decline in '91, below his career averages in every stat.

This is how good Grant was...he and Pippen were very close to getting to an ECF. The next year Jordan came back and Grant was in Orlando and they pretty convincingly beat the Bulls. The next year the Bulls got Rodman and swept the Magic without Grant (hurt).
 
#80

The Dog

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#80
The Pistons team was very good but kinda overrated by history, TBH. If they didn't give Jordan such a hard time, they wouldn't be remembered much and conversely, Jordan is considered to be so good because he finally beat them. It's like this double dutch rudder of legacy building. Zeke is #30 to #40 all-time depending on what list you looks at. Every other all-time great team post-merger has had a much better star. Dumars was a good star sidekick. The rest of the roster was role players
Overrated ? Pistons also lost 3 straight conference finals to the, in his prime led Bird, Celtics and a Finals, 7 game loss to the Showtime Lakers. Pistons could have easily won 3 in a row and maybe 4 or 5. Bad Boys are underrated, imo.
Btw, Isiah would be ranked higher, but he blew his Achilles in his early 30s, only played 13 years in the NBA
 
#81

n_huffhines

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#81
Overrated ? Pistons also lost 3 straight conference finals to the, in his prime led Bird, Celtics and a Finals, 7 game loss to the Showtime Lakers. Pistons could have easily won 3 in a row and maybe 4 or 5. Bad Boys are underrated, imo.
Btw, Isiah would be ranked higher, but he blew his Achilles in his early 30s, only played 13 years in the NBA
That was a long career at the time. We had no history of short guards playing like a star well into their 30's, so not sure you can bank on anything being cut short. He was clearly down before the injury.

They played the Celtics in the 1st rd in '89 (because the C's were down that year, just 42 wins) and not at all in '90. The "showtime" Lakers had a 41 YO starting center who showed his age and Byron Scott missed the entire finals. Magic only played 5 minutes in game 3 and missed the rest of the series....

So yeah, we are greatly overrating their accomplishments when we boast they beat Bird's C's and the Showtime Lakers en route to 2 titles. It's very misleading.
 
#82

hUTch2002

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#82
They're held up as one of the all-time great teams but really compare them to the other greats, and it's no contest. Steph, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Lebron, and Shaq....those are all top 15 players, way out of Zeke's league and they all had at least as much help as Zeke. I don't see it.

I will take '91 Horace Grant all day over '91 Laimbeer. It's not even close, IMO. Laimbeer was an enforcer who could grind. Grant could do that but he could also handle the ball, he was a great passer, he could run like a mother...and Laimbeer was clearly on the decline in '91, below his career averages in every stat.

This is how good Grant was...he and Pippen were very close to getting to an ECF. The next year Jordan came back and Grant was in Orlando and they pretty convincingly beat the Bulls. The next year the Bulls got Rodman and swept the Magic without Grant (hurt).
They’re (Pistons) not an all time top 10. I agree with that. You have to admit the East was in the decline though so yeah the Bulls got to the ECF but the East wasn’t as strong in 94 as it was in 91.
 
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#83

hUTch2002

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#83
That was a long career at the time. We had no history of short guards playing like a star well into their 30's, so not sure you can bank on anything being cut short. He was clearly down before the injury.

They played the Celtics in the 1st rd in '89 (because the C's were down that year, just 42 wins) and not at all in '90. The "showtime" Lakers had a 41 YO starting center who showed his age and Byron Scott missed the entire finals. Magic only played 5 minutes in game 3 and missed the rest of the series....

So yeah, we are greatly overrating their accomplishments when we boast they beat Bird's C's and the Showtime Lakers en route to 2 titles. It's very misleading.
Good grief man, how old are you? You have these details down. I’m guessing late 40s to early 50s as you had to be old enough to understand the game and keep up with it but young enough to have the time. I’m 44 and I remember sports stuff from the 90s better than I do things from the last year, if it was something I paid attention to of course. Impressive recollection of those times though sir. I tip my cap to you.
 
#84

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#84
That was a long career at the time. We had no history of short guards playing like a star well into their 30's, so not sure you can bank on anything being cut short. He was clearly down before the injury.

They played the Celtics in the 1st rd in '89 (because the C's were down that year, just 42 wins) and not at all in '90. The "showtime" Lakers had a 41 YO starting center who showed his age and Byron Scott missed the entire finals. Magic only played 5 minutes in game 3 and missed the rest of the series....

So yeah, we are greatly overrating their accomplishments when we boast they beat Bird's C's and the Showtime Lakers en route to 2 titles. It's very misleading.
I'm talking about 1985-'88, when Bird and Magic were stacking titles. The Pistons got robbed on a phantom Kareem foul or they would have won 3 straight Finals. Plus, 2, 7 game series losses to the Celtics in '86 and '87, including the DJ steal and Bird lay-up. Very easily could have been 5 straight Finals appearances. Agree to disagree.
 
#85

n_huffhines

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#85
Good grief man, how old are you? You have these details down. I’m guessing late 40s to early 50s as you had to be old enough to understand the game and keep up with it but young enough to have the time. I’m 44 and I remember sports stuff from the 90s better than I do things from the last year, if it was something I paid attention to of course. Impressive recollection of those times though sir. I tip my cap to you.
I'm 41. I don't remember the 1989 finals when Magic got hurt. I looked it up. I do remember those Pistons and Lakers teams, but I was a kid and had no sophisticated view of basketball of course.

Now I look at that Pistons team and see how limited they were in certain regards, my BS meter goes off when I hear how they beat up on these legitimate all-time great teams...so I have to see for myself.

To the Pistons credit, in 1988 they did beat the Celtics. This was the 31 YO version of Bird with a bad back (something I remembered). He was still good that year playing through pain but then almost retired that offseason (something I had to look up to get right).
 
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#86

n_huffhines

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#86
I'm talking about 1985-'88, when Bird and Magic were stacking titles. The Pistons got robbed on a phantom Kareem foul or they would have won 3 straight Finals. Plus, 2, 7 game series losses to the Celtics in '86 and '87, including the DJ steal and Bird lay-up. Very easily could have been 5 straight Finals appearances. Agree to disagree.
So at their peak, they lost to the 40 YO Kareem version of the Showtime Lakers. He was averaging 14 ppg that year. The Lakers were clearly not at their peak anymore...and the Pistons still lost.
 
#87

zjcvols

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#87
So at their peak, they lost to the 40 YO Kareem version of the Showtime Lakers. He was averaging 14 ppg that year. The Lakers were clearly not at their peak anymore...and the Pistons still lost.
Yeah, they also got screwed that year by some of the most egregious officiating in NBA history
 
#89

hUTch2002

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#89
I'm 41. I don't remember the 1989 finals when Magic got hurt. I looked it up. I do remember those Pistons and Lakers teams, but I was a kid and had no sophisticated view of basketball of course.

Now I look at that Pistons team and see how limited they were in certain regards, my BS meter goes off when I hear how they beat up on these legitimate all-time great teams...so I have to see for myself.

To the Pistons credit, in 1988 they did beat the Celtics. This was the 31 YO version of Bird with a bad back (something I remembered). He was still good that year playing through pain but then almost retired that offseason (something I had to look up to get right).
Ok, so that’s fair. Maybe I’m looking back and remembering it differently than if I looked at it today with older and (hopefully) wiser eyes. All I know is that was a really fun time period for the NBA. I personally don’t like today’s version as much.

Edit: I’ve enjoyed the stroll down memory lane though Huff. Thanks for that.
 
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#90

n_huffhines

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#90
Ok, so that’s fair. Maybe I’m looking back and remembering it differently than if I looked at it today with older and (hopefully) wiser eyes. All I know is that was a really fun time period for the NBA. I personally don’t like today’s version as much.

Edit: I’ve enjoyed the stroll down memory lane though Huff. Thanks for that.
They were great villains for sure. I think my take is a hot take. I think most people would call them an all-time great team but I also think people would agree with me that they're not in the top tier, when I make the best player comparison.

Pistons were a great team, but I think they're more on that tier with the '93 - '95 Rockets and '07 - '10 Lakers.
 
#91

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#91
Ok, so that’s fair. Maybe I’m looking back and remembering it differently than if I looked at it today with older and (hopefully) wiser eyes. All I know is that was a really fun time period for the NBA. I personally don’t like today’s version as much.

Edit: I’ve enjoyed the stroll down memory lane though Huff. Thanks for that.
Yeah, Huff googles it and you and I watched every minute live, so stick to your original opinion, because it was correct
 
#92

n_huffhines

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#92
Yeah, Huff googles it and you and I watched every minute live, so stick to your original opinion, because it was correct
Haha. How did the Lakers look with a 41 YO Kareem and without Magic and Scott? You called it "showtime". Must've been awesome.

You can trust your analysis that is based on 40 YO memories from your childhood. I'll trust what I find on the internet (which is also where I find your analysis). I find plenty of footage online, too. It's how I know how stupid Bill Laimbeer looks when he runs.
 
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#93
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#93
Haha. How did the Lakers look with a 41 YO Kareem and without Magic and Scott? You called it "showtime". Must've been awesome.

You can trust your analysis that is based on 40 YO memories from your childhood. I'll trust what I find on the internet (which is also where I find your analysis). I find plenty of footage online, too. It's how I know how stupid Bill Laimbeer looks when he runs.
Laimbeer would have made you cry
 

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