Will science destroy religion

#126
#126
Orange_Crush said:
You're still suffering from excluded middles. I believe Jonah and Noah to be literal history, and i also believe that the bible contains things that aren't too be taken literal.
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Gotcha. How do you reconcile what we know scientifically and the story of Noah? ie a total global flood and the 2 of every kind of critter.

As an initial matter, I am not attempting an attack or seeking out a debate. Just knowledge.
 
#128
#128
Orange_Crush said:
You're still suffering from excluded middles. I believe Jonah and Noah to be literal history, and i also believe that the bible contains things that aren't too be taken literal.
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The Jonah story has been proven impossible.
 
#130
#130
ClearwaterVol said:
Gotcha. How do you reconcile what we know scientifically and the story of Noah? ie a total global flood and the 2 of every kind of critter.

As an initial matter, I am not attempting an attack or seeking out a debate. Just knowledge.
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I don't take it that way at all. I always enjoy our discussions.

What should I reconcile between Noah and the flood as opposed to what science has proven? Science believes that everything we see is the result of gradual change via things going on the way they always have. Th flood presents a catastrophic backdrop for the evidence.

Neither belief is provable. Both sides presents interpretations and explanations for the exact same evidence.

As for the 2 by 2 of every kind of critter... I agree, and I am glad you used biblical language. "Kind". I believe that there were two of most "kinds" of land animals on earth, which were pre-programmed with the genetic data that evolved into the further varieties we see populating the earth today.
 
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#136
#136
Orange_Crush said:
I don't take it that way at all. I always enjoy our discussions.

What should I reconcile between Noah and the flood as opposed to what science has proven? Science believes that everything we see is the result of gradual change via things going on the way they always have. Th flood presents a catastrophic backdrop for the evidence.

Neither belief is provable. Both sides presents interpretations and explanations for the exact same evidence.

As for the 2 by 2 of every kind of critter... I agree, and I am glad you used biblical language. "Kind". I believe that there were two of most "kinds" of land animals on earth, which were pre-programmed with the genetic data that evolved into the further varieties we see populating the earth today.
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How does the entire world flood at once? Or do you believe in a localized flood with the entire world's population occupying a very small geographic area? Or something different?

Also, is there any biblical evidence showing time period
in which this flood occurred?
 
#137
#137
hog88 said:
Considering the Jonah story is OT why would you being a Christian matter in your belief of the story?
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Luke 24:27 -- And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he [Jesus] explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
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The OT is every bit as much scripture as the NT is, and it all speaks about Jesus.

Jesus spoke as though the story of Jonah is true, and also gave some insight that it could be a prophetic type per His resurrection. (Note: This sentence carries us closer to my question... Why should I, as a Christian, believe that the story of Jonah is impossible? Think about it.)

Matthew 12:39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
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#139
#139
ClearwaterVol said:
How does the entire world flood at once? Or do you believe in a localized flood with the entire world's population occupying a very small geographic area? Or something different?

Also, is there any biblical evidence showing time period
in which this flood occurred?
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What do you mean, how does the entire world flood at once? From what I could tell, the earth broke open, water came up out of the ground and fell from the sky until the earth was covered.

I believe that it may be possible that it was a localized flood with a very small population in that area, but don't personally believe that is what it means. I believe that the earth flooded and receded. I believe that every person on earth descended from Noah's families and every land creature descended from the kinds that were on the ark.

As opposed to going through every conceivable miracle described in the Bible, I'll ask again... Why should I, as a Christian, believe these things to be impossible?
 
#141
#141
ClearwaterVol said:
Also, is there any biblical evidence showing time period
in which this flood occurred?
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Sorry I missed this. Some people count generations to try to date the flood (and creation), but I find this to be very, very unreliable, as the Semetic cultures didn't always seem to give generations in such a way that counting them could give a good estimate of time. They were known to give generations as much for effect at times as they did for literal counts.

But I don't get hung up on timing. I'm not sure it's important, and I feel it distracts from greater conversations. I'd much rather share the gospel with you (or anyone else).

Titus 3:3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
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By the way, did you know that God loves you and sent His Son to take your penalties so that you can take joy in Him, be fulfilled in Him, and live that fulfilling joy forever?

:)
 
#142
#142
Orange_Crush said:
The OT is every bit as much scripture as the NT is, and it all speaks about Jesus.

Jesus spoke as though the story of Jonah is true, and also gave some insight that it could be a prophetic type per His resurrection. (Note: This sentence carries us closer to my question... Why should I, as a Christian, believe that the story of Jonah is impossible? Think about it.)
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I can respect the fact you believe. Myself, while I believe in God and Jesus, the bible is a book to me. A book that is a collection of stories written by men with agendas and none of whom witnessed any of the events.
 
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#143
#143
hog88 said:
I can respect the fact you believe. Myself, while I believe in God and Jesus, the bible is a book to me. A book that is a collection of stories written by men with agendas and none of whom witnessed any of the events.
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That's obviously your prerogative. :good!:

What do you believe about God and Jesus? I'm just curious, and am asking within the context of Noah and Jonah.
 
#144
#144
Orange_Crush said:
That's obviously your prerogative. :good!:

What do you believe about God and Jesus? I'm just curious, and am asking within the context of Noah and Jonah.
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As for Noah and Jonah, I believe the Noah story was a localized event (region) and the Jonah story was pure embellishment.

As for belief in God, all I have to do is look at the night sky. No way the universe and life were an accident. As for Jesus and the virgin birth, no I don't believe that. I believe he was chosen by God so calling him the Son of God is accurate regardless of the biology.
 
#145
#145
hog88 said:
As for Noah and Jonah, I believe the Noah story was a localized event (region) and the Jonah story was pure embellishment.

As for belief in God, all I have to do is look at the night sky. No way the universe and life were an accident. As for Jesus and the virgin birth, no I don't believe that. I believe he was chosen by God so calling him the Son of God is accurate regardless of the biology.
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We may be getting closer to the answer to my question.

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins, stayed dead for three days, and rose again on Sunday morning--along with a LOT of other dead people--taught the disciples for 40 days, send them to wait for the Holy Spirit, and then ascended to heaven?

Don't answer that. I'll make it simpler.

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins, stayed dead for three days, and then rose again to life?
 
#146
#146
Orange_Crush said:
We may be getting closer to the answer to my question.

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins, stayed dead for three days, and rose again on Sunday morning--along with a LOT of other dead people--taught the disciples for 40 days, send them to wait for the Holy Spirit, and then ascended to heaven?

Don't answer that. I'll make it simpler.

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins, stayed dead for three days, and then rose again to life?
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Yes.
 
#147
#147
hog88 said:
Yes.
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Then what would make Jonah in a whale for three days impossible? That seems to me to be an irrational distinction to make.

Now, I'm not saying that you have to believe it, or that disbelieving it is irrational, even considering your belief in Jesus, dead-then-alive... I'm just saying that I believe it irrational to believe that God is all-powerful, that He has acted so supernaturally in that instance, yet other miracles are impossible.

That's why I don't get unbelievers expecting us to believe these Biblical miracles to be impossible. Here's a hint: I believe MUCH more unbelievable things than a guy in a fish's belly. :)
 
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#148
#148
Orange_Crush said:
Then what would make Jonah in a well for three days impossible? That seems to me to be an irrational distinction to make.

Now, I'm not saying that you have to believe it, or that disbelieving it is irrational, even considering your belief in Jesus, dead-then-alive... I'm just saying that I believe it irrational to believe that God is all-powerful, that He has acted so supernaturally in that instance, yet other miracles are impossible.

That's why I don't get unbelievers expecting us to believe these Biblical miracles to be impossible. Here's a hint: I believe MUCH more unbelievable things than a guy in a fish's belly. :)
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:hi:
 
#149
#149
The Torah was written to explain things to people thousands of years ago in a way they could understand. While accurate....it is not a science text book. The problem comes in when people add to the scripture things that are not there.
Ex: no rain before the flood.
Torah is silent on when rain begins.
2) age of the earth
Torah is silent on that issue.

G-d is a G-d of laws and rules. To expect His creation to not contain a set of laws to operate on is silly at best.

Science in my mind should be free of political influence. Secularism and religion should be left at the door as you enter the lab.
 
#150
#150
OC
In your mind how does Yeshua Messiah (Jesus) satisfy Torah? As a Jew or practitioner of Judaism I believe he does and have an answer that I will not force on anyone else. And I should add I'm not looking to argue or pick at your beliefs. I'm legitimately curious of your thoughts.
And #2. Do you believe repentance is required for salvation?


And before we go off on a tangent.....I think you believe in a Triune God where I believe Yeshua Messiah is issued the authority of G-d much like the angle of the lord in Exodus. The name of G-d is literally in Him. I don't think that is a salvation issue as either belief recognizes the authority of Messiah.
I'm more interested in how the rules are applied in your mind.
 
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