Will Butch's incompetence at Tennessee cost Alabama?

#1

wmcovol

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#1
Several people have told me that Deshaun Watson initially committed to Tennessee under Kiffin (very early in his high school career) but that Dooley fumbled that ball along with several others and Watson ended up at clemson. Of course, Watson beat Alabama for a NC once and it is very basic knowledge that Clemson would not have been close to a NC game without Watson so I guess we could deduct that Dooley helped screw Nicky out of a NC!

Since Butchie and Saban are buddies these days, I thought how ironic would it be that Butch's complete incompetence while at Tennessee in recruiting local kids Rodgers and Higgins and losing life-long Manning fan Lawrence could cost Nicky another one tonight. No way is Clemson in the mix again without these 3. I guess knowing these kids probably grew up at some point in their life liking Tennessee but being soured on the Vols by that numb-skull makes pulling for clemson alittle easier. It would be some form of relief of the misery of watching that game tonight.
 
#3

wmcovol

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#3
That same logic would say that Fulmer actually helped Saban win 2 or 3 NCs by failing to land Hightower and Jones.
Seriously? As good as Hightower and Jones (Jones was a bama legacy) were, Bama probably had other prospects they could have got or already had on campus to replace both. Ive only seen a couple ILBs that could dominate a game by themselves (and Hightower wasnt one of them) and never seen a center who could. QBs, RBs, WRS, DEs & DB/kickreturners, but not a friggin center.

Still carrying that crush for Phil, huh?
 
#4

bamawriter

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#4
Seriously? As good as Hightower and Jones (Jones was a bama legacy) were, Bama probably had other prospects they could have got or already had on campus to replace both. Ive only seen a couple ILBs that could dominate a game by themselves (and Hightower wasnt one of them) and never seen a center who could. QBs, RBs, WRS, DEs & DB/kickreturners, but not a friggin center.

Still carrying that crush for Phil, huh?
Barrett Jones is the greatest offensive lineman in the history of college football. He started at least one game at all five positions, including 3 different positions in 3 national championship games. He is the only player to win the Outland as a tackle and then win the Rimington after switching to center the next year. To suggest that he wasn't absolutely critical to the titles he won at Bama falls somewhere between moronic and asinine.

As for Hightower, he was the quarterback of the greatest defense in modern history.
 
#5

Orange_Vol1321

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#5
Several people have told me that Deshaun Watson initially committed to Tennessee under Kiffin (very early in his high school career) but that Dooley fumbled that ball along with several others and Watson ended up at clemson. Of course, Watson beat Alabama for a NC once and it is very basic knowledge that Clemson would not have been close to a NC game without Watson so I guess we could deduct that Dooley helped screw Nicky out of a NC!

Since Butchie and Saban are buddies these days, I thought how ironic would it be that Butch's complete incompetence while at Tennessee in recruiting local kids Rodgers and Higgins and losing life-long Manning fan Lawrence could cost Nicky another one tonight. No way is Clemson in the mix again without these 3. I guess knowing these kids probably grew up at some point in their life liking Tennessee but being soured on the Vols by that numb-skull makes pulling for clemson alittle easier. It would be some form of relief of the misery of watching that game tonight.
Trevor Lawrence is going to have a long, tough night.
 
#6

05_never_again

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#6
Several people have told me that Deshaun Watson initially committed to Tennessee under Kiffin (very early in his high school career) but that Dooley fumbled that ball along with several others and Watson ended up at clemson. Of course, Watson beat Alabama for a NC once and it is very basic knowledge that Clemson would not have been close to a NC game without Watson so I guess we could deduct that Dooley helped screw Nicky out of a NC!

Since Butchie and Saban are buddies these days, I thought how ironic would it be that Butch's complete incompetence while at Tennessee in recruiting local kids Rodgers and Higgins and losing life-long Manning fan Lawrence could cost Nicky another one tonight. No way is Clemson in the mix again without these 3. I guess knowing these kids probably grew up at some point in their life liking Tennessee but being soured on the Vols by that numb-skull makes pulling for clemson alittle easier. It would be some form of relief of the misery of watching that game tonight.
Blaming Dooley or Butch for Tennessee's demise is like someone dumping toxic waste all over a piece of land then blaming the guy who acquires the land afterwards for failing to develop it into a nice property.

Dooley and Butch, especially Dooley, were essentially set up to fail.
 
#8

wmcovol

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#8
Barrett Jones is the greatest offensive lineman in the history of college football. He started at least one game at all five positions, including 3 different positions in 3 national championship games. He is the only player to win the Outland as a tackle and then win the Rimington after switching to center the next year. To suggest that he wasn't absolutely critical to the titles he won at Bama falls somewhere between moronic and asinine.

As for Hightower, he was the quarterback of the greatest defense in modern history.
You're crazy. He's not even among the top 5 greatest OL at Alabama..... How can the greatest OL in college football history be a practice squad player in the NFL? Youre full of it.
 
#9

wmcovol

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#9
Blaming Dooley or Butch for Tennessee's demise is like someone dumping toxic waste all over a piece of land then blaming the guy who acquires the land afterwards for failing to develop it into a nice property.

Dooley and Butch, especially Dooley, were essentially set up to fail.
Both were completely innocent bystanders, poor fellers.
 
#10

05_never_again

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#10
Both were completely innocent bystanders, poor fellers.
I didn't say they were innocent bystanders. They made bad choices when the only options available to them were bad choices. Dooley in particular was one of the most "in over his head" head coaches in the history of modern college football.

He was tasked with turning around a traditional power, high expectation, SEC football program with his experience being one of Saban's helpers, a 17-20 record at Louisiana Tech, and a good last name.
 
#11

bamawriter

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#11
You're crazy. He's not even among the top 5 greatest OL at Alabama..... How can the greatest OL in college football history be a practice squad player in the NFL? Youre full of it.
He's absolutely the best lineman in college football history. He washed out of the NFL because of mounting injuries. He had a foot injury that he played on to end the 2012 season (he was on crutches between the SECCG and the BCSNCG) that required two surgeries, and that sent him falling down draft boards. He then hurt his back while in the league, and that was that.

But, NFL production does not reflect on college production. Thus, Jones' amazing college career isn't affected by his short NFL tenure.
 
#14

05_never_again

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#14
He's absolutely the best lineman in college football history. He washed out of the NFL because of mounting injuries. He had a foot injury that he played on to end the 2012 season (he was on crutches between the SECCG and the BCSNCG) that required two surgeries, and that sent him falling down draft boards. He then hurt his back while in the league, and that was that.

But, NFL production does not reflect on college production. Thus, Jones' amazing college career isn't affected by his short NFL tenure.
If you wanted to argue that he's the most decorated college football offensive lineman of all time, I could certainly buy that. On both an individual and team level. He's #2 on the list below, but I'm not sure he was more talented than a guy like Bryant McKinnie, Joe Thomas, or Jake Long.

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-footballs-top-50-offensive-linemen-bcs-era
 
#15

bamawriter

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#15
If you wanted to argue that he's the most decorated college football offensive lineman of all time, I could certainly buy that. On both an individual and team level. He's #2 on the list below, but I'm not sure he was more talented than a guy like Bryant McKinnie, Joe Thomas, or Jake Long.

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-footballs-top-50-offensive-linemen-bcs-era
I wouldn't say that Jones is more talented than any of them, either. But greatness shouldn't be measured in talent; it should be measured in accomplishment.
 
#16

give_him 6

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#16
I'd be very curious to hear what Dooley and Butch have learned from their experience at Tennessee and what they would do differently after their coaching re-habs in Dallas and Tuscaloosa.

In my opinion, someone is going to give Dooley another shot after he coached Drew Lock and coaches Kelly Bryant next season. Probably will be a group of 6 job.
 
#17

05_never_again

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#17
I wouldn't say that Jones is more talented than any of them, either. But greatness shouldn't be measured in talent; it should be measured in accomplishment.
It should ultimately be measured by exactly how good each of them were at the position(s) they played. The awards are impressive, but not every Outland winner, or Heisman winner, or All-American is created equal, and honestly I'd rather judge a guy by how well he played rather than what committee gave him an award.

I don't know what each of these guys graded at - the PFF-type grades that are given out today weren't even around, or at least not publicly available, when someone like Bryant McKinnie was playing. But the impression that I got was that someone like a McKinnie, Thomas, Long, etc. were just more dominant at their positions than Jones was. However Jones had the demonstrated ability to not just play multiple positions along the O-line but be great at all of them. Those others at least didn't demonstrate, or have the chance to demonstrate, the ability to do that.
 
#18

wmcovol

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#18
If you wanted to argue that he's the most decorated college football offensive lineman of all time, I could certainly buy that. On both an individual and team level. He's #2 on the list below, but I'm not sure he was more talented than a guy like Bryant McKinnie, Joe Thomas, or Jake Long.

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-footballs-top-50-offensive-linemen-bcs-era
Most decorated, yes. Best OL, no way. John Hannah, Dwight Stephenson, etc
 
#19

volfannbama

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#19
He's absolutely the best lineman in college football history. He washed out of the NFL because of mounting injuries. He had a foot injury that he played on to end the 2012 season (he was on crutches between the SECCG and the BCSNCG) that required two surgeries, and that sent him falling down draft boards. He then hurt his back while in the league, and that was that.

But, NFL production does not reflect on college production. Thus, Jones' amazing college career isn't affected by his short NFL tenure.
Id say he is in the top 10, maybe top 5. But sorry, Orlando Pace and Jonathon Ogden are the top two.
 
#21

SD189

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#21
He's absolutely the best lineman in college football history. He washed out of the NFL because of mounting injuries. He had a foot injury that he played on to end the 2012 season (he was on crutches between the SECCG and the BCSNCG) that required two surgeries, and that sent him falling down draft boards. He then hurt his back while in the league, and that was that.

But, NFL production does not reflect on college production. Thus, Jones' amazing college career isn't affected by his short NFL tenure.
John Hannah would have treated Jones like a piece of toilet paper
 

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