Why we have slipped

#1
donsargegolf

donsargegolf

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#1
In a previous VN poll I voted that Philip Fulmer was a better coach than John Majors. The one thing that is not argueable though is the Assistants under these Head Coaches. And to further this importance is the "NEW" 20 hour a week practice rule. Here are a few of the Johnny Majors Assistants that have gone on to their own jobs or the NFL. Larry Marmie, Dom Capers, Kippy Brown, Lovie Smith, David Cutcliffe, Al Saunders, Larry Lacewell, Ron Zook, Tommy West, and Walt Harris. This is a pretty stellar group of football minds. While in comparison how many Coaches on Phil Fulmer's staff moved, improved their status or even been interviewed for positions? This may answer many, many questions to player development, discipline, penalties etc. Your opinion on this matter?
 
#3
#3
We will probably need another 10 or so years to do an honest comparison..but for now, I don't see anyone going on to glory from TN except perhaps Trooper Taylor or Chavis. That does bring up a side thought that i may need to investigate further..Is TN a Head Coach graveyard. Is there any head coach that has had success anywhere else after coaching at TN? Of course we have had alot of stability at TN so it may not even be a question with any real point.
 
#4
#4
Sarge, I think you have lost it if you put RON ZOOK in a "stellar group of football minds".

How many of those coaches were run off by Majors?
 
#5
#5
It's just a different level of expectation now with the current coaching staff. With Majors you could figure on 8-9 wins and a guaranteed loss to bama. Maybe compete for an SEC champ if someone else lost. Now we expect perfection and a 10-win season is below us. Why did the expectations change? CPF and CJM perform on different levels. Did you ever truly expect a Majors coached team to compete for the NC. No, but it is expected out of CPF every season.

I'm not advocating lowering our expectations at all because the fans and the players had better expect greatness. Last year was a great coaching job by the staff. If they can pull out wins over ND and bama then it could be considered another good one. The season's not over yet...
 
#6
#6
Originally posted by TBALLVOL@Oct 11, 2005 12:52 PM
We will probably need another 10 or so years to do an honest comparison..but for now, I don't see anyone going on to glory from TN except perhaps Trooper Taylor or Chavis. That does bring up a side thought that i may need to investigate further..Is TN a Head Coach graveyard. Is there any head coach that has had success anywhere else after coaching at TN? Of course we have had alot of stability at TN so it may not even be a question with any real point.
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Fulmer has been there since 1993 and you don't think that is long enough? C'mon.
 
#7
#7
Originally posted by utvolpj@Oct 11, 2005 1:36 PM
Sarge, I think you have lost it if you put RON ZOOK in a "stellar group of football minds". 

How many of those coaches were run off by Majors?
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Zook is not great BUT, he is better than anybody we have on staff now. He did get his own job at TWO major U's, something only Cutcliffe has done under Fulmer. And when he was at UT our special teams did NOT suck if u remember..
 
#8
#8
Originally posted by utvolpj@Oct 11, 2005 1:36 PM
Sarge, I think you have lost it if you put RON ZOOK in a "stellar group of football minds". 

How many of those coaches were run off by Majors?
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IMO Zook is a proven recruiter, but not a stellar football mind. Seems like exactly what we have on our offensive staff now.
 
#9
#9
Originally posted by Lexvol@Oct 11, 2005 3:20 PM
IMO Zook is a proven recruiter, but not a stellar football mind.  Seems like exactly what we have on our offensive staff now.
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All I am saying is he is BETTER than wat we have now. Who on our staff could get the Fla or Illinois Head Coaching job? Besides Phil.
 
#10
#10
Originally posted by donsargegolf@Oct 11, 2005 3:26 PM
All I am saying is he is BETTER than wat we have now. Who on our staff could get the Fla or Illinois Head Coaching job? Besides Phil.
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I bet that in 2 years (if that long) the Illinois job will be vacant. The Zooker will be luck to go 3-8 and win a conf game this year.
 
#11
#11
Originally posted by donsargegolf@Oct 11, 2005 3:26 PM
All I am saying is he is BETTER than wat we have now. Who on our staff could get the Fla or Illinois Head Coaching job? Besides Phil.
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No argument with that.
 
#12
#12
Well I played for Tommy West...and I thought I had joined the Marines. Hes a good guy, great sense of humor, but when its time to work...you worked 110% or else.
 
#13
#13
Originally posted by dan4vols@Oct 11, 2005 3:34 PM
Well I played for Tommy West...and I thought I had joined the Marines. Hes a good guy, great sense of humor, but when its time to work...you worked 110% or else.
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We need some of that on the hill again. :bow:
 
#14
#14
Originally posted by dan4vols@Oct 11, 2005 3:34 PM
Well I played for Tommy West...and I thought I had joined the Marines. Hes a good guy, great sense of humor, but when its time to work...you worked 110% or else.
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I'd take Tommy West, as long as he brings Joe Lee Dunn (if Chavis takes off) :eek:k: :eek:k: :eek:k:
 
#15
#15
Originally posted by Lexvol@Oct 11, 2005 3:38 PM
I'd take Tommy West, as long as he brings Joe Lee Dunn (if Chavis takes off) :eek:k:  :eek:k:  :eek:k:
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Do you all think Tommy is approachable? :dunno:
 
#16
#16
In my opinion from years past...to players, fellow coaches, school officials, even students...yes....fans...no so much. Tommy cares about the program hes in and involved in, if the average fan approached him Id say Hed blow you off politely, if he was in a good mood that is. :twocents:
 
#17
#17
Originally posted by donsargegolf@Oct 11, 2005 11:58 AM
In a previous VN poll I voted that Philip Fulmer was a better coach than John Majors. The one thing that is not argueable though is the Assistants under these Head Coaches. And to further this importance is the "NEW" 20 hour a week practice rule. Here are a few of the Johnny Majors Assistants that have gone on to their own jobs or the NFL. Larry Marmie, Dom Capers, Kippy Brown, Lovie Smith, David Cutcliffe, Al Saunders, Larry Lacewell, Ron Zook, Tommy West, and Walt Harris. This is a pretty stellar group of football minds. While in comparison how many Coaches on Phil Fulmer's staff moved, improved their status or even been interviewed for positions?  This may answer many, many questions to player development, discipline, penalties etc. Your opinion on this matter?
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Don't forget former grad assitant Jon Gruden. A Super Bowl ring before you're 45 isn't too shabby a resume item.
 
#18
#18
Don't be surprised if West doesn't use the Memphis game as his Letter of Recommendation when he plays us this year. TN better not overlook this one.
 
#19
#19
Originally posted by TBALLVOL@Oct 11, 2005 12:52 PM
We will probably need another 10 or so years to do an honest comparison..but for now, I don't see anyone going on to glory from TN except perhaps Trooper Taylor or Chavis. That does bring up a side thought that i may need to investigate further..Is TN a Head Coach graveyard. Is there any head coach that has had success anywhere else after coaching at TN? Of course we have had alot of stability at TN so it may not even be a question with any real point.
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The Tennessee head coaching job is the pinnacle of college football.... not a graveyard. Head coaches don't leave Tennessee because its one of the top 10 historical programs in the country. Over the years, the only schools that might even come close to being considered a step up are Notre Dame, Alabama and Michigan. And Tennessee has better facilities, just as much money, puts more players in the NFL, and a rich history.... and a better record than those schools over the last decade.

But if you must know the history of coaches that left Tennessee. The last was Doug Dickey... he left for his alma mater (Florida)..... and did not do as well (58-43-2) as he did at Tennessee. Funny how he won 2 SEC Championships in his last 3 years and both seasons were 9-2... which was considered a success back then (2 losses is the end of the world now).

Before that Harvey Robinson was the coach that followed Neyland. He lasted 2 years (1953-54) had a 10-10-1 record and went to Florida as an assistant. He later returned as an assistant at Tennessee under Bowden Wyatt. Could not find out if he was fired or not, but I imagine he was.

War interrupted Neyland's coaching career... John Barnhill stepped in (1941-45) and had a 32-5-2 record. He moved on to the head coaching position at Arkansas when Neyland returned. His record at Arkansas (1946-49) was 22-17-3. Again, this was a bit different than Dickey leaving, because Barnhill knew his was just holding a spot for Neyland.

From 1921-25, M.B. Banks was head coach. His record was 27-15-3 and he left (due to health reasons) to take the head coach position at Central High School.

You could add Johnny Majors in there if you wanted, but he was asked to leave. He went back to Pittsburgh (12-32) where he could not create the same success he had in the '70s.
 
#20
#20
Originally posted by allvol@Oct 12, 2005 8:35 AM
The Tennessee head coaching job is the pinnacle of college football.... not a graveyard.  Head coaches don't leave Tennessee because its one of the top 10 historical programs in the country.  Over the years, the only schools that might even come close to being considered a step up are Notre Dame, Alabama and Michigan.  And Tennessee has better facilities, just as much money, puts more players in the NFL, and a rich history.... and a better record than those schools over the last decade.

But if you must know the history of coaches that left Tennessee.  The last was Doug Dickey... he left for his alma mater (Florida)..... and did not do as well (58-43-2) as he did at Tennessee.  Funny how he won 2 SEC Championships in his last 3 years and both seasons were 9-2... which was considered a success back then (2 losses is the end of the world now).

Before that Harvey Robinson was the coach that followed Neyland.  He lasted 2 years (1953-54) had a 10-10-1 record and went to Florida as an assistant.  He later returned as an assistant at Tennessee under Bowden Wyatt.  Could not find out if he was fired or not, but I imagine he was.

War interrupted Neyland's coaching career... John Barnhill stepped in (1941-45) and had a 32-5-2 record.  He moved on to the head coaching position at Arkansas when Neyland returned.  His record at Arkansas (1946-49) was 22-17-3.  Again, this was a bit different than Dickey leaving, because Barnhill knew his was just holding a spot for Neyland.

From 1921-25, M.B. Banks was head coach.  His record was 27-15-3 and he left (due to health reasons) to take the head coach position at Central High School.

You could add Johnny Majors in there if you wanted, but he was asked to leave.  He went back to Pittsburgh (12-32) where he could not create the same success he had in the '70s.
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I think someone without strong UT ties would leave Tennessee for the schools you mentioned, as well as Oklahoma and USC. Most coaches would also probably consider Ohio State a better job.
 
#21
#21
just to put the coaching staff into perspective under Johnny Majors:

Larry Marmie (St. Louis Rams - Def Cord)
Dom Capers (Houston Texans - Head Coach)
Kippy Brown (Houston Texans - Receivers Coach)
Lovie Smith (Chicago Bears - Head Coach)
David Cutcliffe (Former OC at UT, Former Head Coach of Old Miss, Notre Dame)
Al Saunders (Kansas City Chiefs - Asst. Head Coach)
Larry Lacewell (Arkansas State Indians - Former Athletic Director, Former Head Coach - winningest head coach in school history and 13 years for Dallas Cowboys as scouting director)
Ron Zook (Illinois - Head Coach, Former Florida Head Coach, New Orleans Saints Def. Cord, Kansas City Def. Backs Coach, Steelers Special Teams… Also coached at Florida, Cincinnati, Ohio State, Virginia Tech and Tennessee of course.
Tommy West (Memphis University - Head Coach) also head coach for Clemson, Tommy Bio: http://gotigersgo.collegesports.com/sports...st_tommy00.html
Walt Harris ( Athletic Director - Stanford) also former head coach at Pitt, QB coach at Ohio State, New york Jets ect.
And of course Phil Fulmer - (University of Tennessee - Head Coach) one of the winningest head coaches active.
 
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