What about high school football?

ABINGDON VOL FAN

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Do you have a statistics based study proving that having 330 million healthy people wear masks is an effective way of preventing the spread of a virus they do not have? Otherwise... your argument fails.

Your comparison is non-sense. Apples to anvils. The only way it becomes comparable is if you said that no one had the right to drive if ANYONE might be driving drunk and cause an accident. You literally trying to compel 330 million people who have NO chance of spreading the virus because they do not have it in masks.

There are places and situations where the spread is KNOWN to occur. Control those FIRST. Just requiring bars and restaurants to install air purification systems would do FAR more than mask wearing to stop the spread... but somehow it doesn't seem to occur to our "professionals" that the best way to stop the virus is to kill it before it has an opportunity to infect someone.
There are studies and tests by reputable organizations out there demonstrating that masks are critical in slowing the spread. I have referenced them several times in the last few days. Google is your friend if you truly want to know the right answer.
 

sjt18

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There are studies and tests by reputable organizations out there demonstrating that masks are critical in slowing the spread. I have referenced them several times in the last few days. Google is your friend if you truly want to know the right answer.
If I post an article demonstrating how those claims ultimately aren't scientific but speculative... will you read it?

Where have you posted them? Before you refused to back your claims up.
 

ABINGDON VOL FAN

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If I post an article demonstrating how those claims ultimately aren't scientific but speculative... will you read it?

Where have you posted them? Before you refused to back your claims up.
Check my history the last 10 days. University of Iowa was one study and then a report on NBC nightly news about 10 days ago.
 

Dumbledorange

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Paul Finebaum
@finebaum

·


Former Chicago Tribune columnist
@RealDavidIsrael
: “Sports should probably just cash its checks and go home until 2021. There’s just no way to keep players, coaches and other people affiliated with teams safe. And that should be their first priority.”

Paul Finebaum

@finebaum

·
23m

--
@CFBHeather
tells us college commissioners and ADs are going on the advice of doctors, who have yet to tell them it is unsafe to have a CFB season. "If any doctor goes to them and says it is no longer safe, I believe they will throw up their hands and surrender the season."



Paul Finebaum

@finebaum



"I still think it comes down to the SEC. If the SEC plays, I can’t see a scenario where the Big Ten, Big 12, ACC and Pac-12 take a pass.” -
@TheAndyKatz
on the college football season.
 

ABINGDON VOL FAN

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Do you have a statistics based study proving that having 330 million healthy people wear masks is an effective way of preventing the spread of a virus they do not have? Otherwise... your argument fails.

Your comparison is non-sense. Apples to anvils. The only way it becomes comparable is if you said that no one had the right to drive if ANYONE might be driving drunk and cause an accident. You literally trying to compel 330 million people who have NO chance of spreading the virus because they do not have it in masks.

There are places and situations where the spread is KNOWN to occur. Control those FIRST. Just requiring bars and restaurants to install air purification systems would do FAR more than mask wearing to stop the spread... but somehow it doesn't seem to occur to our "professionals" that the best way to stop the virus is to kill it before it has an opportunity to infect someone.
Masks are a relatively lower cost and quicker alternative to slow down the virus. The cost of air purification systems may bankrupt many bars and restaurants and take too long to implement and will not be timely enough to slow the spread. Masks would be more effective now in this critical time.
 
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Remy

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NFL training camps opened today. High school practices in some places will begin soon with private schools in some places opening as early as this week. NCAA P5s to this point show no hint of closing the season down, will be difficult if high schools and the NFL plays and the NCAA is relegated to thumbs up donkeys for the season. I do not see that happening.
 

sjt18

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Masks are a relatively lower cost and quicker alternative to slow down the virus. The cost of air purification systems may bankrupt many bars and restaurants and take too long to implement and will not be timely enough to slow the spread. Masks would be more effective now in this critical time.
The ones I purchased for my plant cost $500 installed. Their case study showed that model reducing Covid in the air of an airline fuselage sized compartment by 99.4% in 30 minutes. We run ours continuously and do a 100% air exchange in around half the time CDC specifies as "close contact" (15 minutes). We have two units covering around 500 sq ft... and that is MASSIVE overkill. It was the smallest available unit and we needed one for each HVAC unit. I believe the recommendation for the units like ours is to pair with a 5 ton HVAC system. Essentially a typical house.

Masks are not effective. Even educated advocates acknowledge that the virus still escapes the masks and contaminates the air if you do not have space and ventilation. Your ONLY argument is that masks my reduce the spread by a fairly small percentage then argue that's significant over the population.

Worse yet, no one appears to have done any type of risk assessment. If masks capture Covid or other viruses then that presents a potential danger to the person wearing it and anyone in their home. If those masks become wet or moist then the virus can multiply. It is not speculation but science that shows that wearing masks lowers blood oxygen and increases blood pressure. That presents a danger to known patients and as well as those whose health problems may not yet be known. This is before we get into various minor respiratory illnesses that can be aggravated by wearing masks.

EXACTLY like the comprehensive national lockdown... this is an overreaction... a political narrative playing the part of a public health directive. At the absolute MOST... such orders should be reserved for areas with significant or uncontrolled outbreaks.... and that's only when PROVEN to do more good than harm.
 
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sjt18

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NFL training camps opened today. High school practices in some places will begin soon with private schools in some places opening as early as this week. NCAA P5s to this point show no hint of closing the season down, will be difficult if high schools and the NFL plays and the NCAA is relegated to thumbs up donkeys for the season. I do not see that happening.
Best I can tell HS football in most of Missouri will run as usual with some mask requirements for some people.
 

ABINGDON VOL FAN

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The ones I purchased for my plant cost $500 installed. Their case study showed that model reducing Covid in the air of an airline fuselage sized compartment by 99.4% in 30 minutes. We run ours continuously and do a 100% air exchange in around half the time CDC specifies as "close contact" (15 minutes). We have two units covering around 500 sq ft... and that is MASSIVE overkill. It was the smallest available unit and we needed one for each HVAC unit. I believe the recommendation for the units like ours is to pair with a 5 ton HVAC system. Essentially a typical house.

Masks are not effective. Even educated advocates acknowledge that the virus still escapes the masks and contaminates the air if you do not have space and ventilation. Your ONLY argument is that masks my reduce the spread by a fairly small percentage then argue that's significant over the population.

Worse yet, no one appears to have done any type of risk assessment. If masks capture Covid or other viruses then that presents a potential danger to the person wearing it and anyone in their home. If those masks become wet or moist then the virus can multiply. It is not speculation but science that shows that wearing masks lowers blood oxygen and increases blood pressure. That presents a danger to known patients and as well as those whose health problems may not yet be known. This is before we get into various minor respiratory illnesses that can be aggravated by wearing masks.

EXACTLY like the comprehensive national lockdown... this is an overreaction... a political narrative playing the part of a public health directive. At the absolute MOST... such orders should be reserved for areas with significant or uncontrolled outbreaks.... and that's only when PROVEN to do more good than harm.
You keep on arguing that masks are not 100% effective. No one is stating they are. We are talking about reducing the risk and the overwhelming majority of medical professionals and scientists cite studies, tests and their own professional opinions that masks can help. I do not accept everything the experts state but in this case I believe their pro-Mask opinions are considerably more plausible than your anti-mask opinion.

edit: Regarding the costs for your Air Filtration System. Many small restaurant and bars would not be able to afford that extra cost in the short term and are struggling now to even stay open permanently. It is not a viable option for most unless the business is well financed and national in scope.
 
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sjt18

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You keep on arguing that masks are not 100% effective.
No. You keep acting as if they are and that anyone who doubts that dogma should be taken to the landfill and shot.

No one is stating they are. We are talking about reducing the risk and the overwhelming majority of medical professionals and scientists cite studies, tests and their own professional opinions that masks can help.
First thing a real scientist will tell you is that consensus is not science. Proof, data, evidence, investigation, experimentation,... are the things of science. And THOSE THINGS are sorely lacking for the idea that putting 330 million people in masks to stop the spread of a disease present in perhaps .5% of that number WITHOUT accounting for possible risks... is a good idea.

I do not accept everything the experts state but in this case I believe their pro-Mask opinions are considerably more plausible than your anti-mask opinion.
Then will you agree that is justification for YOU to choose to wear a mask but NOT for anyone to impose that decision on others?

edit: Regarding the costs for your Air Filtration System. Many small restaurant and bars would not be able to afford that extra cost in the short term and are struggling now to even stay open permanently. It is not a viable option for most unless the business is well financed and national in scope.
So $500 is a poor investment to be able to assure your customers they are breathing air that won't give them Covid? How much do you want to bet that ANY business at this point that said you could safely visit them without masks would be FLOODED?

You are just being obtuse here. The extra surface sanitizers used up in these businesses when CDC falsely said that Covid spread readily on surfaces exceeded $500. They're gone... and were a complete waste.
 

ABINGDON VOL FAN

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No. You keep acting as if they are and that anyone who doubts that dogma should be taken to the landfill and shot.

First thing a real scientist will tell you is that consensus is not science. Proof, data, evidence, investigation, experimentation,... are the things of science. And THOSE THINGS are sorely lacking for the idea that putting 330 million people in masks to stop the spread of a disease present in perhaps .5% of that number WITHOUT accounting for possible risks... is a good idea.

Then will you agree that is justification for YOU to choose to wear a mask but NOT for anyone to impose that decision on others?


So $500 is a poor investment to be able to assure your customers they are breathing air that won't give them Covid? How much do you want to bet that ANY business at this point that said you could safely visit them without masks would be FLOODED?

You are just being obtuse here. The extra surface sanitizers used up in these businesses when CDC falsely said that Covid spread readily on surfaces exceeded $500. They're gone... and were a complete waste.
No on every point you make. Especially where you claim I have made statements that masks are 100% effective. Look at my post history. You are as bad as the liberal networks. Distort facts or downright manufacture assumptions about my posts to fit your narrative or argument.

About the $500. I seriously doubt most restaurants and bars could do it for that much plus they would not be able to accomplish it NOW which is the critical time. Masks are a better alternative as of TODAY.

“Obtuse” is a better description of your posts than mine.
 
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sjt18

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No on every point you make. Especially where you claim I have made statements that masks are 100% effective.
You mean except for the fact that I DID NOT SAY THAT?

Look at my post history. You are as bad as the liberal networks. Distort facts or downright manufacture assumptions about my posts to fit your narrative or argument.
Interesting take for someone who has swallowed their narrative hook, line, and sinker and then refused to cite your own references.

Show where I have distorted anything. You have let the fear narrative get to you.

About the $500. I seriously doubt most restaurants and bars could do it for that much plus they would not be able to accomplish it NOW which is the critical time. Masks are a better alternative as of TODAY.
No. You just won't let go of being "right" on this... because you AREN'T. A restaurant that makes it financially has to have several thousand customers per month. You are talking about an expense that comes own to maybe 20 cents per customer or less.

Masks are NOT a better alternative since their effectiveness is highly questionable for the PURPOSE being proposed. The idea is that they reduce the amount of Covid carried in the air. That is useless in environments like outdoors where the air flow itself keeps the virus from accumulating in a particular spot. It isn't of much greater use in a store like Walmart where the air is constantly being exchanged and your likelihood of being within 6' of an infected person for 15 minutes is VERY low.

So where would reducing the amount of Covid breathed out actually help? In relatively small, closed spaces with recycled air. Homes, offices, apartment buildings, restaurants, mass transit... but since masks do not prevent particles from entering the air... you are just talking about it taking 20 minutes to achieve a level that will make you sick rather than 15. Once you factor in recycled air... you aren't even getting that benefit.

The kind of "evidence" being thrown out in support of masks is weak if you look even one layer below the surface. If I used the fact that CA's reported cases have increased by 160% since they invoked a mask mandate and claimed that proved that masks were ineffective... that would be an illegitimate proof- not science at all. There are MANY other things that factor in like the rate of testing and even more people being inside to escape the heat. But this is EXACTLY the kind of argument that is passing for "science" in the mainstream media in support of masks. In fact, the REVERSE of this HAS been used by the media as "proof" of the effectiveness of masks within the last few weeks.

I am not afraid of this because I understand the numbers and how they've been systematically distorted to make a bad virus look many orders of magnitude worse than it is. I do not trust "just so" demands from authorities to start with. That is only compounded when the people you appear to trust have been wrong so often and even directly contradicted themselves just during the last few months. They once said with great conviction that the public did NOT need to wear masks and that the homemade variety would NOT stop the virus. Now... they're ready to fine and even imprison people who refuse to do something they once declared unnecessary.... and have not proven is necessary.

More likely than not, the masks are pure symbolism. They are so the "experts" and politicians can respond to media pressure to "do something". Put people with symptoms in masks like several Asian countries did? Yes. Put healthy people in masks? No.

“Obtuse” is a better description of your posts than mine.
Except I keep throwing reason at you... facts at you... and you keep letting fear close your mind.
 

ABINGDON VOL FAN

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You mean except for the fact that I DID NOT SAY THAT?

Interesting take for someone who has swallowed their narrative hook, line, and sinker and then refused to cite your own references.

Show where I have distorted anything. You have let the fear narrative get to you.

No. You just won't let go of being "right" on this... because you AREN'T. A restaurant that makes it financially has to have several thousand customers per month. You are talking about an expense that comes own to maybe 20 cents per customer or less.

Masks are NOT a better alternative since their effectiveness is highly questionable for the PURPOSE being proposed. The idea is that they reduce the amount of Covid carried in the air. That is useless in environments like outdoors where the air flow itself keeps the virus from accumulating in a particular spot. It isn't of much greater use in a store like Walmart where the air is constantly being exchanged and your likelihood of being within 6' of an infected person for 15 minutes is VERY low.

So where would reducing the amount of Covid breathed out actually help? In relatively small, closed spaces with recycled air. Homes, offices, apartment buildings, restaurants, mass transit... but since masks do not prevent particles from entering the air... you are just talking about it taking 20 minutes to achieve a level that will make you sick rather than 15. Once you factor in recycled air... you aren't even getting that benefit.

The kind of "evidence" being thrown out in support of masks is weak if you look even one layer below the surface. If I used the fact that CA's reported cases have increased by 160% since they invoked a mask mandate and claimed that proved that masks were ineffective... that would be an illegitimate proof- not science at all. There are MANY other things that factor in like the rate of testing and even more people being inside to escape the heat. But this is EXACTLY the kind of argument that is passing for "science" in the mainstream media in support of masks. In fact, the REVERSE of this HAS been used by the media as "proof" of the effectiveness of masks within the last few weeks.

I am not afraid of this because I understand the numbers and how they've been systematically distorted to make a bad virus look many orders of magnitude worse than it is. I do not trust "just so" demands from authorities to start with. That is only compounded when the people you appear to trust have been wrong so often and even directly contradicted themselves just during the last few months. They once said with great conviction that the public did NOT need to wear masks and that the homemade variety would NOT stop the virus. Now... they're ready to fine and even imprison people who refuse to do something they once declared unnecessary.... and have not proven is necessary.

More likely than not, the masks are pure symbolism. They are so the "experts" and politicians can respond to media pressure to "do something". Put people with symptoms in masks like several Asian countries did? Yes. Put healthy people in masks? No.


Except I keep throwing reason at you... facts at you... and you keep letting fear close your mind.
You are a person that will never admit they are wrong regardless of the information and facts that are presented to you which I have done. You stated in your prior post that I had stated masks were 100% effective. That is a lie. Now you state that you never made that claim. Your posts are out there. Now you have lied twice. You have absolutely zero credibility now. Your mentality is child like.
 

OldVolMan

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The ones I purchased for my plant cost $500 installed. Their case study showed that model reducing Covid in the air of an airline fuselage sized compartment by 99.4% in 30 minutes. We run ours continuously and do a 100% air exchange in around half the time CDC specifies as "close contact" (15 minutes). We have two units covering around 500 sq ft... and that is MASSIVE overkill. It was the smallest available unit and we needed one for each HVAC unit. I believe the recommendation for the units like ours is to pair with a 5 ton HVAC system. Essentially a typical house.

Masks are not effective. Even educated advocates acknowledge that the virus still escapes the masks and contaminates the air if you do not have space and ventilation. Your ONLY argument is that masks my reduce the spread by a fairly small percentage then argue that's significant over the population.

Worse yet, no one appears to have done any type of risk assessment. If masks capture Covid or other viruses then that presents a potential danger to the person wearing it and anyone in their home. If those masks become wet or moist then the virus can multiply. It is not speculation but science that shows that wearing masks lowers blood oxygen and increases blood pressure. That presents a danger to known patients and as well as those whose health problems may not yet be known. This is before we get into various minor respiratory illnesses that can be aggravated by wearing masks.

EXACTLY like the comprehensive national lockdown... this is an overreaction... a political narrative playing the part of a public health directive. At the absolute MOST... such orders should be reserved for areas with significant or uncontrolled outbreaks.... and that's only when PROVEN to do more good than harm.
Do they have a purifier for a home? Could you give me the brand or something to look up on internet?
 

sjt18

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Do they have a purifier for a home? Could you give me the brand or something to look up on internet?
You can check out the rest of their website. This unit is for HVAC systems up to 6 tons. That works for residential. It costs about $500 installed. There are other companies that make similar systems. The technology is called bipolar ionization. Unlike IR systems (which DO work) these do not make your air stink. The IR systems leave a "burnt" smell in the air. In fact, these systems appears to be effective at taking things out of the air that cause it to stink. One of my guys with a very sensitive nose noticed a clear difference.

iWave-R Air Purifier Nu-Calgon
 
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