VN, help! Manning vs. Brady (long but worth it)

[peyton4heisman]

OK. So, as Tennessee fans and football fans in general, we here all know that Peyton is 10x the QB than that of Tom Brady. I know it, you know it, and anybody who has eyes that has somehow not been brainwashed by the media knows it. So there you go. Simple. Right? WRONG!

I need your help VN. My best friend is from Beantown and is a huge NE Patriots fan. We talk on a daily basis, either on the phone, over text, and occasionally in person at the sports bar or over a game of cards (we now live 500 miles away.) For fun, we debate about anything and everything. I consider us both to be very witty and very good debaters. We debate anything from the superiority of the South (or North, if you are arguing for the wrong side), MJ vs. LBJ, college football vs NFL football, beer superiority, car brands, iPhone vs android, and so on and so on. I win sometimes, he wins sometimes, and it's all in a day's work.

But there is one topic that summons so much passion from both he and myself that any of the aforementioned topics of friendly debate inevitably almost always gives way to. Like any other topic is just the appetizer for what we both know is coming: tom brady vs. Mr. Peyton Manning.

The hard facts are this in a nutshell:
Peyton has way better overall career stats when you include the regular season.
Brady crushes Peyton in arguably the most important set of stats: postseason and Super Bowl rings

Although I tend to agree that in almost any other situation, a player's greatness can be summed up by postseason performance, I feel adamantly that the PM v TB competition is a bit of an anomaly. Yes, TB has 3 rings to PM's 1. Yes, TB has a much better playoff record than PM. BUT PEYTON MANNING IS 1Ox THE QB THAT TOM BRADY IS!

So you can imagine my frustration when inevitably this is thrown in my face. It has been his trump card for the entire 4 years we've known each other. I don't mind losing the occasional debate to my Mick best friend from Boston, MA. I DO mind consistently finding myself without any kind of significant comeback to his postseason statistics argument.

I've tried almost everything to beat him at this debate. Everything from Spygate to TB = system quarterback to coaching edges, to teammates. Even the "intangibles" argument bites me in the rear. "Winning in the playoffs, reaching deep down when it really matters and finding a way to grind out the win when it's do or die is not an intangible?"

So I know most of you on here are on my side with this one. If not, you, like my Beantown friend, are wrong. And not a VFL IMO. And a nega-vol. Also, I know most of you on here have found yourselves in this very same position at some time or the other. Maybe you are struggling with the same things I am.

So my plea is this VN. HELP! Give me some fool-proof ammunition that I can bring to the table and help me turn the tides on this cocky Yankee! It would help me out tremendously, and maybe this thread could even possibly be a go-to, upon which any Vol fan faced with the encounter of a ridiculous tom brady fan can call.

How do you win the PM vs. tb argument? Help!!!

Go Vols, GBO, Butch "gets it" BEAT SOUTH ALABAMA BY A HUNNERT!

:loco:

Mods, please let this thread remain in the football forum. Freak himself has admitted that he hasn't made up his mind on what to do with former Vols threads. I usually post in this forum, so I would greatly appreciate the feedback of those I'm used to shooting the chat with :hi:

 

[tidehater23]

I hate it when I have to defend Peyton against the fools that think Tom Brady is better. It's like saying Woodson deserved the Heisman over Peyton. Ignorant! Some people are incredibly dumb. Sheeple! I'm interested in hearing some good arguments for the PM side as well so I can shut the TB lovers up!

 

[gordonr24]

Can't discredit Tom Brady. He's an all time great but I gotta go with Peyton in this argument. Tom Brady may be top 5 all time at his position but Peyton Manning will be the greatest to ever play the game when he finally hangs it up.

 

[Vercingetorix]

If Tom Brady is a greater QB than Peyton Manning, then Terry Bradshaw The Idiot is a greater QB than Tom Brady.

QED

 

[govols105]

peyton win you three more super bowls break all of bradys records and retire. then and only then will you shut up the brady lovers and be the best to ever play. this is plain fact.

 

[TheBigOne10]

Not even a debate. I wouldn't even waste my breath if I was you. Peyton is the the best to ever play. Find a new friend.

 

[VFLCodyGBO]

Compare win/loss records of both player's team when they don't have the quarterback, it simply shows one did more with less and the other did ok with great.

/debate

 

[44DivePlay]

Compare win/loss records of both player's team when they don't have the quarterback, it simply shows one did more with less and the other did ok with great.

/debate

Something like this is your best chance. For the most part, Tom Brady has had better defenses/Belicheck defenses. Defenses win championships as Ravens proved last year, Steelers and Bears proved in the past.

Manning has had okay defenses with a couple good players like Freeney but would have bad secondaries etc at times. A really good defense holds Brees down a bit and he wins last Super Bowl.

Brady has has overall more solid/better teams, at least until Peyton got to Denver and now has a better defense

 

[Volnukem]

Compare win/loss records of both player's team when they don't have the quarterback, it simply shows one did more with less and the other did ok with great.

/debate

This. This. And This. My trump card in this argument will always be Matt Cassel's 11-5 record as the Patriots QB in 2008 after Brady went done for the season. How did the Colts fair without Manning? Game. Set. Match. STFU Brady lovers.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Tom Brady has spent his whole career playing for the coach who is almost unanimously considered the greatest pro football coach since Bill Walsh.

Petyon Manning has spent his career playing for Jim Mora, Tony Dungy, Jim Caldwell, and John Fox.

What happens to both of their careers if you flip that?

 

[Volosaurus rex]

You aren't going to be able to change the minds of people who adhere to the fundamentally flawed belief that Super Bowl championships are the end-all, be-all measuring stick for quarterbacks. However, it would be very interesting to see what your friend has to say to the following question:

Do you believe that the following quarterbacks were better than Dan Marino: Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson? If he is logically consistent, which he probably will not be, his answer should be yes. All of these mediocre to average quarterbacks led teams to Super Bowl victories whereas Marino did not (see List of quarterbacks with multiple Super Bowl starts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). This simply underscores just how important supporting cast, particularly on defense, is to the overall goal of winning a Super Bowl.

In the meantime, you can congratulate his boy on leading the Patriots to three three-point victories in Super Bowls, the last of which was following the 2004 season. Just hope that Peyton can, indeed, close out his career like John Elway did at Denver by winning back-to-back Super Bowls and breaking every major record in the NFL book. That should finally shut up the naysayers.

 

[Hacksaw]

Tell your friend to make an argument for Brady WITHOUT using team statistics. Every time he mentions wins and losses (including playoffs/Super Bowls), stop him and tell him to try again. What he is really doing is arguing that the Patriots were better than the Colts. You can concede that argument without agreeing that Brady is a better QB.

Also, if not for the tuck rule game and the Patriots cheating, Brady wouldn't have any SB rings.

 

[Hacksaw]

Tell him that the logical conclusion of his argument is that Mark Rypien was a better QB than Fran Tarkenton or Dan Marino.

 

[BadJerry20]

Super Bowl wins and passing records does not equal the greatest QB. Unless Favre and Bradshaw are currently the greatest, they are not btw. The real answer to greatest is simple...Joe Montana. Guys a lot smarter than all of us think the same thing.

 

[Hacksaw]

Montana < Manning

Manning eclipsed all of Joe's stats in fewer seasons. And Manning, unlike Montana, did not have the luxury of playing for the dominant team of his era. Brady did, though.

 

[BadJerry20]

People and their stats. I guess Favre and Marino are better than Montana too. Kareem and K Malone are better than MJ. And Marciano is the greatest boxer ever.

 

[BadJerry20]

Btw Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne>>>>>than Troy Brown and whoever Brady has thrown too the second most times...Deion Branch maybe?

I'm not saying one is better than the other I'm saying throwing out stats or championships isn't the best indicator to who is better.


If I can have one guy to drive 80 yards in 2 minutes to win a playoff game, it's Montana and it isn't even close.

 

[Hacksaw]

Marino > Montana, IMO. And you could make an argument for Favre, too.

How many Super Bowls did Montana win after he moved to Kansas City? Meanwhile, San Francisco kept rolling right along with Steve Young at QB.

Pesky facts.

 

[Hacksaw]

This. This. And This. My trump card in this argument will always be Matt Cassel's 11-5 record as the Patriots QB in 2008 after Brady went done for the season. How did the Colts fair without Manning? Game. Set. Match. STFU Brady lovers.

This is a great point. In fact, the Pats had a worse record the following season with Brady back as the starting QB.

 

[whitw]

Yah op, it was long and I enjoyed it. NO HOMO!!!

 

[BadJerry20]

Marino > Montana, IMO. And you could make an argument for Favre, too.

How many Super Bowls did Montana win after he moved to Kansas City? Meanwhile, San Francisco kept rolling right along with Steve Young at QB.

Pesky facts.

Nobody in their right mind would argue Favre over Montana. What happened when Montana's underdog niners faced the Dolphins in the Super Bowl? And everyone was picking Miami. Idk in KC Joe led them to the AFC championship game including 2 come from behind victories in the playoffs. Btw KC hasn't won a playoff game since. The Niners won a single Super Bowl after Joe left, not sure that's rolling since he won 4.

Facts do suck.

 

[BadJerry20]

Btw I like Young more than Montana, but Joe was the greatest I ever saw and the majority of football experts and ex players agree. As I said if I was down 6, with 80 yards to go in 2 minutes only one guy would be my QB.

 

[BadJerry20]

I do find it funny when people say Brady is the greatest because of championships that he barely won, and the fact that he lost 2. I also find it humorous that PM didn't have the talent to win multiple Super Bowls even though that talent helped him get the best record numerous times. Both sides make strange arguments.

 

[voladdiction]

The debate is a good one. Brady is a fantastic QB and a guaranteed first ballot hall of famer. But I think Manning is better. Here's why...

(All stats are as of last season, btw)
1. Better completion %. Manning 65.2%. Brady 63.7%.
2. More passing yards. Manning 59,487. Brady 44,806 (Manning has played 2 more years, but Brady would have to average over 7,000 yards the next 2 years catch him
3. More TDs. Manning 436. Brady 334. (Brady would have to throw 51 TDs each year for the next 2 years to catch him)
4. More 4th quarter comebacks. Manning 38. Brady 26. (Brady would need 6 each year for the next 2 years to catch him)
5. More game-winning drives. Manning 49. Brady 37. (Brady would need 6 each year for the next 2 years to catch him)
6. More Pro Bowls. Manning 12 . Brady 8. (Brady can't catch him in the next 2 years)

And let's add some more overlooked data...
The Patriots without Brady in 2008. 11-5 record.
The Colts without Manning in 2011. 2-14 record.

Or consider this...
Broncos before Manning - 8-8.
Broncos after Manning - 13-3.
Demaryius Thomas before Manning - 2 seasons, only 834 receiving yards.
Demaryius Thomas after Manning - 1 season, 1,434 receiving yards.
Eric Decker before Manning - 2 seasons, 718 receiving yards.
Eric Decker after Manning - 1 season, 1,064 receiving yards.

Peyton Manning drastically improves his team and his players.

Peyton Manning is also...
1. the fastest ever to reach 50,000 yards passing.
2. the fastest ever to reach 60,000 yards passing.
3. the fastest ever to reach 4,000 completions.
4. the fastest ever to reach 400 passing TDs.

Ray Lewis, the greatest NFL LB said that Manning is the "greatest QB to ever play the game".

Manning has choked on some big stages. But so has Brady.
Brady has more rings. But rings are won by teams. Don't tell me that Jeff Hostetler, Trent Dilfer, and Doug Williams are equal in talent and value to Peyton Manning because they have the same number of Super Bowl wins.

Brady has also had a better HC (Belichek is perhaps the best ever). Don't think we'll be including Tony Dungy in that conversation - and definitely not John Fox.

Brady has had WAY BETTER defenses supporting him. During his Super Bowl runs, the Patriots D was outstanding. The Colts? Not so much.

I respect and admire Tom Brady. He is truly great. One of the best.
But Manning is the best ever.

 

[KoachKletus]

Sid Luckman.