Transgender athletes

[Lucy]

I'm not shocked by much. This has nothing to do with Trump or abortion. This has to do with biological males being allowed to compete against females. Nothing more, so why not try to stick to the topic.
I will admit that I don't agree that both sides have legitimate stances. The science of male/female physical differences has been long established.

You have missed my points again and again.

 

[madtownvol]

OMG, madtown, I did not intend to pick yet another fight! I am the one (or one of those) who repeated CoachJumpers’ Bible Belt reference. I didn’t mean to suggest that that settled anything but did opine that as with this Virus, this topic will eventually, and temporarily play itself out.

If, in your grand wisdom, you think the Bible has any standing in this, or any “relevant” discussion, you (or anyone) should be free to say so. Or not. If you think God makes mistakes, or not; or if you think there is a Holy God, or not, is also your prerogative. There will be radicals/extremists on both sides of any such discussion. I’m Christian and God-fearing, but certainly do not profess to have the answers.
______________________________
Anyhow, and since we have no Personal Message option - and as I recall you being a musical aficionado of sorts - I intended to include/tag you in my Clarksville post on GameTime’s “Something About You” thread in which I replied to feathersax. If you wouldn’t mind, I, and certainly my son, would appreciate your opinion of Miss Vidovic.

And, CoachJumper, I literally did not recall ever having heard Beth Hart sing. I thoroughly enjoyed it. She and “Smokin’ Joe” Bonamassa are quite a team.

Krich,

My post was not really directed at you. Let me put another way, if people are going to have strong opinions about an issue like transgender rights they should at least have an informed opinion. Here, I am not talking about the sports competition aspect which does raise complicated issues about the levelness of the playing field but, where the discussion has gone off the proverbial rails as some are dismissing the very legitimacy of the identity, such as by proclaiming that God either made you a man or a woman, end of story. Such thinking suggest that such people are sinful abominations rather than products of brain chemistry, hormonal combinations, and other biological aspects.

It was all that long ago, really that many proclaimed that God made women the fairer sex and that they were not suited to athletics, intellectual pursuits, and other domains. If you look at the history, there was considerable moral outrage in the early 1900's because middle-class women were taking up bicycling which male religious leaders and their male deemed to be a violation of God's natural order.

 

[lvocd]

So serious question. If "queer" is a term that can be used interchangeably with the LGBT spectrum, why is it limited to a single letter in LGBTQIA...especially if the "Q" can be representative of the other 6 letters?

It’s more about recognizing that different people label themselves in various ways, not so much that there are any absolutes in labeling. For instance, in the early 90s many of the more politically active in LGB community began calling themselves “queer” as a means of empowerment by “taking back a word that had been used as an insult” by the intolerant for so long. Many in the community labeled EVERYone who was non-hetero as simply “gay.” Then “gay” became more commonly the term for men. “Lesbian” was the word many homosexual female feminists preferred. “Bi” people wanted their “B,” but were often considered by the longtime-confident/comfortable members of the community as merely “too afraid to admit they’re PG or L.”

As more people get more comfortable and educated, more specific labels of self-identity have emerged. I could go on and on, but just know that the labels are for the people in the community themselves, and so it’s always safest to simply ASK someone what she/he/they prefers — if anything at all.

 

[T_Vol376]

Let me start by saying live your life however you choose to. Having said that men have absolutely no business playing all female sports. It creates a huge advantage from a lot of different angles. I understand we live in a PC world where all should be fair game but come on at the end of the day they just want an easy way to a trophy. If they were worth a damn in sports they’d compete at the mens level.

Go ahead and torch me I know it’s coming...

Well torch me too because I feel the exact same way.

 

[T_Vol376]

Agreed! I am a track coach and if I took my high school athlete who is a male and is pretty good (not the best in the nation or even the state) for a guy and put him in a female race he would be running in the olympics! It is just a different playing field.

This is a great discussion thread but let’s not use it for personal attacks (that’s not directed at you) on how people look

Let’s be better than that especially with everything we have going on today

Exactly! Let’s not use this to attack certain females’ looks.

 

[glv98]

Tough subject, good conversation. Hope I stay out of trouble.

Aren't male hormones present in female athletes basically a performance enhancing substance? The kind E German and Russian Olympic swimmers used to be banned for using?

Of course it complicates things greatly that in the case of transgender female athletes, those substances are on board in error and through no fault of their own. And its true they struggle for acceptance in so many other areas you hate to ban them.

However, when the presence of these substances very clearly provide an unfair competitive advantage, it becomes discriminatory toward the birth females. Unless you feel a majority can never be discriminated against and minority participation trumps majority fair treatment. We do indeed need Solomon here!

 

[T_Vol376]

I couldn’t care less what GLSEN (a biased action group) says. It’s not transphobic to not want transgender athletes to compete against biological women. If the person in question has gone through male puberty they should be barred from competition or have to compete at the highest level (the male level). As for those who transition before puberty, that’s a little more gray. They probably should get to. However, it’s a sketchy world we live in that doctors would allow children to try and change their sex. They don’t all know; de-transition is real especially after puberty. As to the suicide rates, nothing suggest that they be allowed to compete as their preferred gender would help.

At the professional level what we are seeing should outrage you. In most cases these are full grown men who transition late in life and beat up on women’s accomplishments and records. You never hear (or will) of a female to male person dominating a sport. I could go on and on, but in the end it’s wrong.

Thank you. You said what I was thinking, but couldn’t figure out how to express it. This right here: “It’s not transphobic to not want transgender athletes to compete against biological women.”

That said, it pisses me off that some are using this thread to make fun of some women we know are not transgender.

 

[Amb3096]

His/her name is Mack Beggs...He was undefeated for several years in high school, in the great state of Texas, wrestling as a girl....89-0 for the two years...

He's now in college, Life University, and is suing the powers that be because their conference charter says you have to wrestle as the gender you were assigned at birth....

This is all too confusing....

Oh so he's FTM transgender. I thought it was the other way around. So I presume in the first picture posted, it was when he was still living as a female and wrestling with other females.

 

[madtownvol]

Tough subject, good conversation. Hope I stay out of trouble.

Aren't male hormones present in female athletes basically a performance enhancing substance? The kind E German and Russian Olympic swimmers used to be banned for using?

Of course it complicates things greatly that in the case of transgender female athletes, those substances are on board in error and through no fault of their own. And its true they struggle for acceptance in so many other areas you hate to ban them.

However, when the presence of these substances very clearly provide an unfair competitive advantage, it becomes discriminatory toward the birth females. Unless you feel a majority can never be discriminated against and minority participation trumps majority fair treatment. We do indeed need Solomon here!

In a link I posted up stream about track and fields compromise on this issue, intersex athletes (and I would presume the same holds true for MTF transgender) must have their T-levels suppressed to a level that is within the testing "normal range" for women athletes.

I am not sure that fully levels the playing field but it does create more biological parity.

 

[madtownvol]

OMG, Anyhow, and since we have no Personal Message option - and as I recall you being a musical aficionado of sorts - I intended to include/tag you in my Clarksville post on GameTime’s “Something About You” thread in which I replied to feathersax. If you wouldn’t mind, I, and certainly my son, would appreciate your opinion of Miss Vidovic.

PS,

Thanks for the link to Ana Vidovic's performance, What a virtuoso!

 

[madtownvol]

It Did. Daddy sang Bass.

Nope, she was born a coal miner's daughter. He was a tall coal miner.

 

[glv98]

In a link I posted up stream about track and fields compromise on this issue, intersex athletes (and I would presume the same holds true for MTF transgender) must have their T-levels suppressed to a level that is within the testing "normal range" for women athletes.

I am not sure that fully levels the playing field but it does create more biological parity.

Sounds like a start, but then you still have the question of size, muscle mass, etc, gained before suppression. I know puberty was mentioned upthread as a differentiating point.

 

[BigBadVol]

Personal attacks like using the word “tranny”. Maybe the poster didn‘t know that is considered a slur?

LOL!. Yea we are all torn up about it. Would they rather be called mentally disturbed.

 

[VA_VOLFAN]

Exactly! Let’s not use this to attack certain females’ looks.

Yupper. My beliefs are my own but I work with special education students and many of them are judged for their looks and have been written off. So I try and not judge a book by its cover.

 

[kell7517]

I

This thread is about athletics and males competing against females.

You made it about looks:
"But you are telling me you’ve “never” looked at a person and could’ve sworn it was the opposite of what you thought?"

Not me

I was replying to someone else’s reply about looks. I didn’t make it about looks until then. I know what this thread is about. If you are gonna correct me or try to set me straight. Get it right first.

 

[Roustabout]

1. Some people on this thread invoked the idea that God makes you a man or a woman, so I think it is fair to characterize those arguments against the legitimacy of alternative sexualities religious.

2. My point about biological was again directed at the argument that a person is either a man or woman. And there are many situations where that cisgender experience does not hold, be it gender dysphoria (which is actually distinct from transgender) or intersex athletes, such as track athlete Caster Semenya.

Sure it's fair to criticize them. that's my point. The problem is it doesn't allow you or anyone to dismiss other non-religious arguments critical of this subject on that basis.
As a person of faith, I agree, it's a bad argument. If someone is born with schizophrenia we don't fail to treat them because "God made them that way."

Regarding your second point. Since I know someone who was born with both sex organs I do have a little insight. I can assure you they wish they had the struggles some of these others have.
What we are speaking to are people who are anatomically definable as one gender and want to change that gender because they "feel" different than what their anatomy reveals. There is too much unknown about Semenya, at least based on what I've read.

 

[lvocd]

Gender has long been a topic of interest in North America. Since we’re all bored, here’s some interesting reading:

Two Spirits, One Heart, Five Genders

Two-spirit - Wikipedia

 

[I40flyer]

This has the potential to totally unravel the Title 9 ruling for Women!

What's to stop a program from going out and getting 4* or better men, having them identify as women and go on to totally dominate women's basketball, softball, volleyball, etc.

It would also kill the ratings if those cuties on Volleyball got replaced.

"We have to draw the line somewhere-Please don't let this happen.

 

[I40flyer]

This shouldn't even be a problem, we have men's sports, women's sports and add tranny sports, cover it under Title IX, problem solved, except for the billions for the new trans toilets and locker rooms etc., but hey, the fans would be willing pony up the funds.

 

[I40flyer]

I think there's a thoughtful debate to be had here but wow, the transphobia on this forum is intense.

GLSEN has shared some excellent resources that debunk some of the myths floated around on this board: Transgender Inclusion in High School Athletics

I think it's also important to think about how this plays out at the child/youth level vs. professional sports, considering that "lesbian, gay and bisexual high school students are almost five times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers, according to a 2015 report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And a study published in 2018 found that gender nonconforming youths are at even greater risk, with more than half of the transgender male teenagers attempting suicide over the three years they were followed." (NYTimes)

Last, Chris Mosier, a sprinter who was the first trans athlete to be selected for a U.S. National Team, has a great website with a guide to terminology (since some of you expressed that it was difficult to keep up), how to be a kind and respectful ally to trans people/athletes, and how different states/governnments/organizations/universities are ruling on trans rights: https://www.transathlete.com/starthere

Are you saying if trannys are allowed to play on the female teams, the rate of attempted suicide will drop?

 

[I40flyer]

It’s a complicated issue. Food for thought:

https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20190503/study-about-1-in-1000-babies-born-intersex

'We don’t know if your baby’s a boy or a girl': growing up intersex

1 in every 83,0000 babies are born this way, rare. If 5% of them go on to play NCAA sports (a high number) that would a very very very small number. This isn't the problem, the problem is those born 100% physically male. This "intersex" argument is a red herring at best. There are very few hermaphrodites.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I

I was replying to someone else’s reply about looks. I didn’t make it about looks until then. I know what this thread is about. If you are gonna correct me or try to set me straight. Get it right first.

In this PC world you have to be careful for sure. But you are telling me you’ve “never” looked at a person and could’ve sworn it was the opposite of what you thought? May have even talked to friend when seeing this person and said. Man I thought that was a guy/girl.

you didn't write this?

This thread is about men competing against women. This post referenced looks.
Got it right!

 

[I40flyer]

Thank you. You said what I was thinking, but couldn’t figure out how to express it. This right here: “It’s not transphobic to not want transgender athletes to compete against biological women.”

That said, it pisses me off that some are using this thread to make fun of some women we know are not transgender.

Start a new thread about it.

 

[I40flyer]

Men (those that like females) this post is for you. If you ever get arrested or convicted of a crime where you're sentenced to jail/prison time, announce as soon as possible you now ID as a female... may as well make the best of a bad situation.

 

[creekdipper]

Men (those that like females) this post is for you. If you ever get arrested or convicted of a crime where you're sentenced to jail/prison time, announce as soon as possible you now ID as a female... may as well make the best of a bad situation.

For an extra flourish, stuff a pack of feminine hygiene products into the back pocket of your Wranglers before being taken to booking/processing.