Transgender athletes

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There's definitely no easy answer on this. There's definitely some biological males that would fit among the body proportions and strengths of average females. There's also women who could easily appear physically the same as an average male. Among those it would seem much more fair in competition. However we're not seeing those stories we're seeing above average males presenting as female and competing, and no that isn't fair. So maybe keep a split in sports but rather than straight up male vs female base it on actual physical characteristics. No easy way to define the line though. Weight classes could work in some sports, but I don't wanna miss tiny running backs weaving through defenses just because they didn't meet a guideline either. So perhaps keep the male and female (biologically) sports separate and simply don't allow them to compete in either side unless they create their own. We all understand that with some physical disabilities there are often limitations on what someone can do and if they can do so the activity may be heavily modified. So as sad as it would be for a trans person not to be able to participate this is simply a limitation of their condition.
 

creekdipper

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Yes, don't complicate it, its this simple. If you don't agree then why have any barriers at all, just have sports and everyone compete equally, no gender barriers. To let biological males compete against women basically does the same thing.
Yep, the answer is simple. Just eliminate the practice of segregating competition by gender and simply incorporate everyone.

That takes care of many issues:

1) Pay inequality;

2l Non-binary-identifying persons;

3) Funding for financially-strapped athletic programs;

4) Shortage of qualified referees;

5) Logistics for international events.

Equal competition, and may the best human win!
 

Amb3096

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As someone who uses both terms for myself, sometimes interchangeably, in my opinion you're on the right track (though I think these terms mean different things to different people in the LGBTQ community so I can't begin to claim I'm speaking for everyone). I don't think I agree with your point about queer necessarily equaling "flaming" or "undeniably visibly homosexual", but rather how I choose to present myself as a member of the LGBT community, how I connect with other LGBT folks, how I experience the world, and how I bring a particular perspective to different topics based on my identity and past experiences. I also like the term "queer" because it often serves as a more inclusive umbrella term for anyone on the LGBT spectrum.

Thanks, Jumper, for engaging with this in an open and thoughtful way.
So serious question. If "queer" is a term that can be used interchangeably with the LGBT spectrum, why is it limited to a single letter in LGBTQIA...especially if the "Q" can be representative of the other 6 letters?
 

krichunaka

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You are the one who started this travesty of a thread. Did you in any way not understand it would devolve into a hatefest? This is a very difficult situation and it will take the wisdom of Solomon to find a fair solution. All you did was push buttons. Should have thought of homophobia and transphobia before now.
I agree, Lucy. But, this is a forum. This is relevant, and likely to become more of a factor, sooner than later. I personally find these things very disquieting, and I'm certainly not educated enough to comment; well, other than to express my "feelings," my "instincts," or whatever ...which is worth what to this board?
As CoachJumper stated, this is the Bible Belt (IMO, a good place to be), and we could hardly expect to keep this from spreading wings. We could call on Freak, but .... At some point, this will play itself out (probably about the time we go back to work, school, or find other things to worry with), and we can move on. To an extent.

FWIW, I worked (as a maintenance electrician) with a transgender (I literally don't know if that's the correct title) woman at Livermore Labs way back in the mid-eighties. She (Divorced) would call her children about weekend visitation, and so forth, and refer to herself as "Daddy." For lack of better words, she was an adorable person ...and BRILLIANT! (Think LASER QUARTZ). I never turned my back to snicker. He would laugh, I would smile, and get back to bending conduit or pulling wire, those sorta things. She never pinched me, tried to kiss me. Never made me feel uncomfortable; it worked, but it was quite an experience.

I don't know where I wanted to go with this, other than to say, I think we will all have that day of reckoning ...and ALL of us will find ourselves lacking.
 

Pappy

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As someone who uses both terms for myself, sometimes interchangeably, in my opinion you're on the right track (though I think these terms mean different things to different people in the LGBTQ community so I can't begin to claim I'm speaking for everyone). I don't think I agree with your point about queer necessarily equaling "flaming" or "undeniably visibly homosexual", but rather how I choose to present myself as a member of the LGBT community, how I connect with other LGBT folks, how I experience the world, and how I bring a particular perspective to different topics based on my identity and past experiences. I also like the term "queer" because it often serves as a more inclusive umbrella term for anyone on the LGBT spectrum.

Thanks, Jumper, for engaging with this in an open and thoughtful way.
Hey!! I asked first before he answered :)
 

madtownvol

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Okay, my one comment concerns the idea that since tennessee is in the bible belt, well that settles how everyone should feel. My peeve is when people use biblical appeals to justify their own preconceptions.

People on this very thread have said God does not make mistakes but somehow when it comes to transgender folks, then well, that is a mistake cause you are either male or female. And it turns out the gender of biology is way more complex and multifaceted than a simple dichotomy can address:

As one example from an excellent distillation on the biology of gender:

Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY......

Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia

Recognizing that gender identity has grey areas does not address the conundrum raised in this thread but may be it will give some folks pause when they want to conclude that transgenders are violating God's will. For those who so believe, why would God make the biology in this way when working intelligent design magic?

As for the transgender and sport competition, I agree with Lucy. This question is not one that is going to be decided by opinions or by debating biblical references but by the governing bodies and the courts.

Track and field is probably setting the precedent that other sports will follow:

Transgender track and field athletes now face same standard that has kept out Caster Semenya - OlympicTalk | NBC Sports

As for the well, this is a sports forum, well, these work great when it comes to debating who was the better lV. Parker or Holdsclaw, or should Kellie have taken a time out at such and such point. However, this model becomes problematic when it is applied to such controversial, politics of identity issues, where real people can face real negative consequences and "opinions" are ways to gloss prejudices. I know this is the "bible belt" but are we talking Old or New Testament?
 
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travis929

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So serious question. If "queer" is a term that can be used interchangeably with the LGBT spectrum, why is it limited to a single letter in LGBTQIA...especially if the "Q" can be representative of the other 6 letters?
I'm definitely not an expert in the history of how the groupings of letters have evolved, but my understanding would be that the Q on its own might be inclusive of those who don't identify explicitly as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or trans (e.g., someone who is "genderqueer" might be non-binary or choose to present their gender in a variety of ways that are not necessarily fully cis or trans; someone whose sexuality is queer might not fully identity as gay, straight, or bi, but somewhere in between).
 
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Okay, my one comment concerns the idea that since tennessee is in the bible belt, well that settles how everyone should feel. My peeve is when people use biblical appeals to justify their own preconceptions.

People on this very thread have said God does not make mistakes but somehow when it comes to transgender folks, then well, that is a mistake cause you are either male or female. And it turns out the gender of biology is way more complex and multifaceted than a simple dichotomy can address:

As one example from an excellent distillation on the biology of gender:

Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY......

Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia

Recognizing that gender identity has grey areas does not address the conundrum raised in this thread but may be it will give some folks pause when they want to conclude that transgenders are violating God's will. For those who so believe, why would God make the biology in this way when working intelligent design magic?

As for the transgender and sport competition, I agree with Lucy. This question is not one that is going to be decided by opinions or by debating biblical references but by the governing bodies and the courts.

Track and field is probably setting the precedent that other sports will follow:

Transgender track and field athletes now face same standard that has kept out Caster Semenya - OlympicTalk | NBC Sports

As for the well, this is a sports forum, well, these work great when it comes to debating who was the better lV. Parker or Holdsclaw, or should Kellie have taken a time out at such and such point. However, this model becomes problematic when it is applied to such controversial, politics of identity issues, where real people can face real negative consequences and "opinions" are ways to gloss prejudices. I know this is the "bible belt" but are we talking Old or New Testament?
I did not use my reference of the Bible belt to be an all inclusive suggestion. But as an obvious geographical reference...
Movement Advancement Project | LGBT Populations

The only areas with less visibility in this sect is the upper north midwest.
as far as percentages per population, Tn is the lowest at 2.68%

Not sure how they did their math but
182,000 / 6,770,010 = .02688
 

krichunaka

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Okay, my one comment concerns the idea that since tennessee is in the bible belt, well that settles how everyone should feel. My peeve is when people use biblical appeals to justify their own preconceptions.

People on this very thread have said God does not make mistakes but somehow when it comes to transgender folks, then well, that is a mistake cause you are either male or female. And it turns out the gender of biology is way more complex and multifaceted than a simple dichotomy can address:

As one example from an excellent distillation on the biology of gender:

Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY......

Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia

Recognizing that gender identity has grey areas does not address the conundrum raised in this thread but may be it will give some folks pause when they want to conclude that transgenders are violating God's will. For those who so believe, why would God make the biology in this way when working intelligent design magic?

As for the transgender and sport competition, I agree with Lucy. This question is not one that is going to be decided by opinions or by debating biblical references but by the governing bodies and the courts.

Track and field is probably setting the precedent that other sports will follow:

Transgender track and field athletes now face same standard that has kept out Caster Semenya - OlympicTalk | NBC Sports

As for the well, this is a sports forum, well, these work great when it comes to debating who was the better lV. Parker or Holdsclaw, or should Kellie have taken a time out at such and such point. However, this model becomes problematic when it is applied to such controversial, politics of identity issues, where real people can face real negative consequences and "opinions" are ways to gloss prejudices. I know this is the "bible belt" but are we talking Old or New Testament?
OMG, madtown, I did not intend to pick yet another fight! I am the one (or one of those) who repeated CoachJumpers’ Bible Belt reference. I didn’t mean to suggest that that settled anything but did opine that as with this Virus, this topic will eventually, and temporarily play itself out.

If, in your grand wisdom, you think the Bible has any standing in this, or any “relevant” discussion, you (or anyone) should be free to say so. Or not. If you think God makes mistakes, or not; or if you think there is a Holy God, or not, is also your prerogative. There will be radicals/extremists on both sides of any such discussion. I’m Christian and God-fearing, but certainly do not profess to have the answers.
______________________________
Anyhow, and since we have no Personal Message option - and as I recall you being a musical aficionado of sorts - I intended to include/tag you in my Clarksville post on GameTime’s “Something About You” thread in which I replied to feathersax. If you wouldn’t mind, I, and certainly my son, would appreciate your opinion of Miss Vidovic.

And, CoachJumper, I literally did not recall ever having heard Beth Hart sing. I thoroughly enjoyed it. She and “Smokin’ Joe” Bonamassa are quite a team.
 

brassie

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You are the one who started this travesty of a thread. Did you in any way not understand it would devolve into a hatefest? This is a very difficult situation and it will take the wisdom of Solomon to find a fair solution. All you did was push buttons. Should have thought of homophobia and transphobia before now.
I haven't seen a lot of hate in this thread. Maybe mods are deleting it. Where is the "travesty?" Does the lawsuit not exist. Shouldn't it be discussed? What I did was start what I feel is an important discussion and since you apparently can't argue against the unfairness of the issue you resort to crying hate and homophobia. I don't know how I can be any clearer. IT'S NOT ABOUT TRANSGENDER! It is all about fairness in women's athletics. Argue the issue, don't try to stifle it or try to make it into something that it isn't.

Look at it from a different perspective. How about the female athlete that has devoted her life to athletics? Personal sacrifice, interminable hours of hard work all in hope of one day being a champion. Parents that also sacrifice their time and their finances to support their daughter. Only to see all of that swept aside because of some warped idea of inclusivity that permits males to compete against females.
 
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Likes: Amb3096
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OMG, madtown, I did not intend to pick yet another fight! I am the one (or one of those) who repeated CoachJumpers’ Bible Belt reference. I didn’t mean to suggest that that settled anything but did opine that as with this Virus, this topic will eventually, and temporarily play itself out.

If, in your grand wisdom, you think the Bible has any standing in this, or any “relevant” discussion, you (or anyone) should be free to say so. Or not. If you think God makes mistakes, or not; or if you think there is a Holy God, or not, is also your prerogative. There will be radicals/extremists on both sides of any such discussion. I’m Christian and God-fearing, but certainly do not profess to have the answers.
______________________________
Anyhow, and since we have no Personal Message option - and as I recall you being a musical aficionado of sorts - I intended to include/tag you in my Clarksville post on GameTime’s “Something About You” thread in which I replied to feathersax. If you wouldn’t mind, I, and certainly my son, would appreciate your opinion of Miss Vidovic.

And, CoachJumper, I literally did not recall ever having heard Beth Hart sing. I thoroughly enjoyed it. She and “Smokin’ Joe” Bonamassa are quite a team.
She can sing, huh...A cross of Janice Joplin and Julie Andrews
A few more of her better songs I will post on that same page...
 

Lucy

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I haven't seen a lot of hate in this thread. Maybe mods are deleting it. Where is the "travesty?" Does the lawsuit not exist. Shouldn't it be discussed? What I did was start what I feel is an important discussion and since you apparently can't argue against the unfairness of the issue you resort to crying hate and homophobia. I don't know how I can be any clearer. IT'S NOT ABOUT TRANSGENDER! It is all about fairness in women's athletics. Argue the issue, don't try to stifle it or try to make it into something that it isn't.

Look at it from a different perspective. How about the female athlete that has devoted her life to athletics? Personal sacrifice, interminable hours of hard work all in hope of one day being a champion. Parents that also sacrifice their time and their finances to support their daughter. Only to see all of that swept aside because of some warped idea of inclusivity that permits males to compete against females.
I don’t have any problem agreeing that this is an issue and both sides have legitimate stances. My big problem was you started this, and yes there have been some hateful posts on here, they may be gone I haven’t read back through them. My problem is you started this and then were evidently shocked to find homophobia and transphobia being expressed here. What did you expect?
Perhaps next time you could suggest a calm reasonable discussion about Trump and abortion.
 
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Roustabout

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Okay, my one comment concerns the idea that since tennessee is in the bible belt, well that settles how everyone should feel. My peeve is when people use biblical appeals to justify their own preconceptions.

People on this very thread have said God does not make mistakes but somehow when it comes to transgender folks, then well, that is a mistake cause you are either male or female. And it turns out the gender of biology is way more complex and multifaceted than a simple dichotomy can address:

As one example from an excellent distillation on the biology of gender:

Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY......

Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia

Recognizing that gender identity has grey areas does not address the conundrum raised in this thread but may be it will give some folks pause when they want to conclude that transgenders are violating God's will. For those who so believe, why would God make the biology in this way when working intelligent design magic?

As for the transgender and sport competition, I agree with Lucy. This question is not one that is going to be decided by opinions or by debating biblical references but by the governing bodies and the courts.

Track and field is probably setting the precedent that other sports will follow:

Transgender track and field athletes now face same standard that has kept out Caster Semenya - OlympicTalk | NBC Sports

As for the well, this is a sports forum, well, these work great when it comes to debating who was the better lV. Parker or Holdsclaw, or should Kellie have taken a time out at such and such point. However, this model becomes problematic when it is applied to such controversial, politics of identity issues, where real people can face real negative consequences and "opinions" are ways to gloss prejudices. I know this is the "bible belt" but are we talking Old or New Testament?
My pet peeve is when people try to poison the well by blankety dismissing opposing positions as “religious.”
also you appear to be confusing genetic gender issues and gender dysphoria.
 
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Lucy

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I haven't seen a lot of hate in this thread. Maybe mods are deleting it. Where is the "travesty?" Does the lawsuit not exist. Shouldn't it be discussed? What I did was start what I feel is an important discussion and since you apparently can't argue against the unfairness of the issue you resort to crying hate and homophobia. I don't know how I can be any clearer. IT'S NOT ABOUT TRANSGENDER! It is all about fairness in women's athletics. Argue the issue, don't try to stifle it or try to make it into something that it isn't.

Look at it from a different perspective. How about the female athlete that has devoted her life to athletics? Personal sacrifice, interminable hours of hard work all in hope of one day being a champion. Parents that also sacrifice their time and their finances to support their daughter. Only to see all of that swept aside because of some warped idea of inclusivity that permits males to compete against females.
And.... I never said anything about homophobia. You did.
 

GameTime

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His/her name is Mack Beggs...He was undefeated for several years in high school, in the great state of Texas, wrestling as a girl....89-0 for the two years...

He's now in college, Life University, and is suing the powers that be because their conference charter says you have to wrestle as the gender you were assigned at birth....

This is all too confusing....
 
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brassie

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I don’t have any problem agreeing that this is an issue and both sides have legitimate stances. My big problem was you started this, and yes there have been some hateful posts on here, they may be gone I haven’t read back through them. My problem is you started this and then were evidently shocked to find homophobia and transphobia being expressed here. What did you expect?
Perhaps next time you could suggest a calm reasonable discussion about Trump and abortion.
I'm not shocked by much. This has nothing to do with Trump or abortion. This has to do with biological males being allowed to compete against females. Nothing more, so why not try to stick to the topic.
I will admit that I don't agree that both sides have legitimate stances. The science of male/female physical differences has been long established.
 

JohnWardForever

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I'm not shocked by much. This has nothing to do with Trump or abortion. This has to do with biological males being allowed to compete against females. Nothing more, so why not try to stick to the topic.
I will admit that I don't agree that both sides have legitimate stances. The science of male/female physical differences has been long established.
Obama brought us this. Period. So; yall suck it up.
 
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madtownvol

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My pet peeve is when people try to poison the well by blankety dismissing opposing positions as “religious.”
also you appear to be confusing genetic gender issues and gender dysphoria.
1. Some people on this thread invoked the idea that God makes you a man or a woman, so I think it is fair to characterize those arguments against the legitimacy of alternative sexualities as religious.

2. My point about the biological aspects was again directed at the argument that a person is either a man or woman. And there are many situations where that cisgender experience does not hold, be it gender dysphoria (which is actually distinct from transgender) or intersex athletes, such as track athlete Caster Semenya.
 
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