To Protect and to Serve...

Status
Not open for further replies.
#9,352
#9,352
TNsnyper20 said:
You say the common man is getting screwed. My point was it's not as bad what you make it out to be.
Click to expand...

It's that bad and probably far worse. All of us are getting poorer and all of us are being subjected to incrementally more intrusive laws that limit our ability to speak, associate with others and defend ourselves on a day to day basis... not to mention that the system receives the benefit of our real work and labor and pay for it with fastly decreasing in value paper currency... which we are forced to pay interest on.
 
#9,354
#9,354
Grand Vol said:
Actually, that's not the argument at all...it has nothing to do with governments, but rather human nature as you already spoke to.

So I'll rephrase it into a better formed question. What is to stop a company, say the security type company, from perverting itself into a tyrannical overlord? To bend the people to their will?
Click to expand...

The free market. As well as the fact is very expensive to bend people to your will. It's still the same argument, if we don't have government, someone will create a government.
The reason it's easy with government is they have the "legal" right to rob you in the form of taxation.
 
Last edited:
#9,355
#9,355
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
The free market. As well as the fact is very expensive to bend people to your will. It's still the same argument, if we don't have government, someone will create a government.
The reason it's easy with government is they have the "legal" right to rob you in the form of taxation.
Click to expand...

The free market won't prohibit feudalism, again, if human nature (namely greed) takes over the largest private security corporation.

"Sorry, I don't want your security services anymore," you might say.

"You don't have a choice," says the company rep.

"Free market gives me the choice," you would say. "I'm going with XYZ Company instead."

And what's to stop that rep from threatening XYZ Company not to take you on since he had a larger presence and more firepower? Or what's to stop that rep from putting a bullet in your head since you are "resisting?"

To me, yes, democracy and/or a representative republic will be perverted into totalitarianism and/or dictatorship over time. But it's generally a slow process. Your An-Cap generally removes the normal government controls of such things and makes it easier for one group to take control easily and without interference. And turn into feudalism, totalitarianism or a dictatorship far quicker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#9,356
#9,356
And DTH, don't read into and take my response as a "we should do nothing" answer. I'm well aware of the problems just as much as you are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#9,357
#9,357
Grand Vol said:
The free market won't prohibit feudalism, again, if human nature (namely greed) takes over the largest private security corporation.

"Sorry, I don't want your security services anymore," you might say.

"You don't have a choice," says the company rep.

"Free market gives me the choice," you would say. "I'm going with XYZ Company instead."

And what's to stop that rep from threatening XYZ Company not to take you on since he had a larger presence and more firepower? Or what's to stop that rep from putting a bullet in your head since you are "resisting?"

To me, yes, democracy and/or a representative republic will be perverted into totalitarianism and/or dictatorship over time. But it's generally a slow process. Your An-Cap generally removes the normal government controls of such things and makes it easier for one group to take control easily and without interference. And turn into feudalism, totalitarianism or a dictatorship far quicker.
Click to expand...

All the things you are describing are things already happening here today. You cannot unsubscribe from the governments "protection."
With government, some will make the argument that we need people not to rob us, well, isn't that exactly what government is doing? So let's look at the logic. You need someone to rob you to keep others from robbing you. How anyone doesn't see this is beyond me. It's the belief in authority that has been the downfall of a potentially free nation.

Anarchism doesn't do this, as there is no state apparatus in place for supposed powers to be granted. Is it a pipe dream? Look at some of the responses here and you'll have you answer. Most people are throughly happy in their tax cages and wouldn't know what to do with real freedom anyway.
 
#9,358
#9,358
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
So let me get this straight, without government we couldn't get anything done? Also, you agree with people being robbed by force to pay for things you want. Got it.

I suggest you spend some time looking at go fund me and kickstarter websites. People are generous when they're not forced to do something.
Click to expand...

Try to get people to agree how to best fund a 1.5 mile stretch of private road. Govt. Is not involved in my current situation and we can't get 11 homeowners to agree on it. For the most part these are level headed people.
 
#9,359
#9,359
Grand Vol said:
The free market won't prohibit feudalism, again, if human nature (namely greed) takes over the largest private security corporation.

"Sorry, I don't want your security services anymore," you might say.

"You don't have a choice," says the company rep.

"Free market gives me the choice," you would say. "I'm going with XYZ Company instead."

And what's to stop that rep from threatening XYZ Company not to take you on since he had a larger presence and more firepower? Or what's to stop that rep from putting a bullet in your head since you are "resisting?"

To me, yes, democracy and/or a representative republic will be perverted into totalitarianism and/or dictatorship over time. But it's generally a slow process. Your An-Cap generally removes the normal government controls of such things and makes it easier for one group to take control easily and without interference. And turn into feudalism, totalitarianism or a dictatorship far quicker.
Click to expand...

This. This. And this.
 
#9,361
#9,361
jp1 said:
Try to get people to agree how to best fund a 1.5 mile stretch of private road. Govt. Is not involved in my current situation and we can't get 11 homeowners to agree on it. For the most part these are level headed people.
Click to expand...

That's impossible. People will come together without government involvement. For the greater good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#9,363
#9,363
jp1 said:
Try to get people to agree how to best fund a 1.5 mile stretch of private road. Govt. Is not involved in my current situation and we can't get 11 homeowners to agree on it. For the most part these are level headed people.
Click to expand...

If the road is private and you want it paved, pave the damn thing and quit whining.
 
#9,365
#9,365
#9,366
#9,366
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
If the road is private and you want it paved, pave the damn thing and quit whining.
Click to expand...

Some want it paved and some want it to remain gravel. Either way it requires maintenance that requires money. John Doe doesnt travel the entire stretch of the road so why should he have to pay for the part he doesnt use? What if the number of people that want to pave it outnumbers the portion that doesn't? It's constant bickering over every little thing. Its very tiresome. I think this is just a microcosm of what we would be dealing with.

As I said the free market idea sounds great in a made up world, and what we have certainly isn't perfect, but to ignore our current problems and think free market is the solution I think is unrealistic.
 
Last edited:
#9,367
#9,367
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
All the things you are describing are things already happening here today. You cannot unsubscribe from the governments "protection."
With government, some will make the argument that we need people not to rob us, well, isn't that exactly what government is doing? So let's look at the logic. You need someone to rob you to keep others from robbing you. How anyone doesn't see this is beyond me. It's the belief in authority that has been the downfall of a potentially free nation.

Anarchism doesn't do this, as there is no state apparatus in place for supposed powers to be granted. Is it a pipe dream? Look at some of the responses here and you'll have you answer. Most people are throughly happy in their tax cages and wouldn't know what to do with real freedom anyway.
Click to expand...

Yes, I also realize they are happening today much to your dismay. But you missed my point that it happens at a far slower pace than with your An-Cap.

And it's interesting you speak of "powers that are granted." In the absence of someone to grant those powers (even in your An-Cap society, you still "grant" powers to others for certain things) power will be taken. And taken by force in a great many instances as history has shown. So you missed my government control comment in the way it's supposed to work. (and has worked before) Unfortunately, we are past a point where government controls could be as effective as they have in the past.

But the biggest thing about An-Cap is the people buying into it. You have to have a population that is willing to do so before it will work. And with the way people love to get free handouts these days, you'll be hard pressed to find people willing to pay for some of the services they would need.

As I've said before, I'm not opposed to it. But I just don't think it will work for various reasons.
 
Last edited:
#9,369
#9,369
You white folks are gonna learn... The State will come down just as hard on you as they would a black reefer smoker or minor traffic violator. And your friendly law enforcement officer will be the ones enforcing "the law". They are "duty bound"...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-sRmbqhfM8[/youtube]
 
#9,370
#9,370
Rasputin_Vol said:
You white folks are gonna learn... The State will come down just as hard on you as they would a black reefer smoker or minor traffic violator. And your friendly law enforcement officer will be the ones enforcing "the law". They are "duty bound"...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-sRmbqhfM8[/youtube]
Click to expand...

What were they confiscated for? The woman that was complaining about being beaten.....the bruising was from poor circulation and not from them being violent with her.
 
#9,373
#9,373
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Which are not your arguments. Do you have an actual argument?
Click to expand...

Mine has been pretty simple. There is no such thing as perfect. But what we have right now is far better than an anarchist style environment. Yes I know money influences things right now. Yes I know things need to change. My argument is the anarchist style would not work. Money will dictate the running class more so than it does now. As GV stated and what I started earlier, human nature will take over specifically greed. No one, or very few, will be willing to do anything to help.

You might, MIGHT, be able to get a smaller number of people withing a small community to get this to work. But not a large country like ours. We are way too diverse and different. If a group of 11 neighbors can't agree on paving a road, how do you expect a larger group to agree and adhere to a set of rules with no authority behind it?
 
#9,375
#9,375
Grand Vol said:
Yes, I also realize they are happening today much to your dismay. But you missed my point that it happens at a far slower pace than with your An-Cap.

And it's interesting you speak of "powers that are granted." In the absence of someone to grant those powers (even in your An-Cap society, you still "grant" powers to others for certain things) power will be taken. And taken by force in a great many instances as history has shown. So you missed my government control comment in the way it's supposed to work. (and has worked before) Unfortunately, we are past a point where government controls could be as effective as they have in the past.

But the biggest thing about An-Cap is the people buying into it. You have to have a population that is willing to do so before it will work. And with the way people love to get free handouts these days, you'll be hard pressed to find people willing to pay for some of the services they would need.

As I've said before, I'm not opposed to it. But I just don't think it will work for various reasons.
Click to expand...

All I want is freedom. I want my daily interactions with people and businesses to be voluntary. I want the ability to unsubscribe from a service without being threatened with a cage or a coffin.
I understand anarchism is a hard concept to grasp when all we've had our entire lives is government thrown in our faces. Our public schools are mothers milk for the beginnings of state worship. We have 1st graders reciting a pledge of allegiance for Christs sake.
I don't want to control anybody, I want to exercise my own talents to be who I think I should be. Most people want the very same things, they are just stuck behind the state and can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's about being human and interacting with your fellow humans in a non violent way. Will there be problems? Of course, utopia doesn't exist.

The core of the matter revolves around the notion of self ownership and the non aggression principle. Some see the NAP as a rule, kind of a law. I see it as a general guideline of how to deal with other people. Will we get there? Who knows.
Anarchy isn't meant to be enforced, it's meant to be lived.
 
New posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Advertisement





Back
Top