To Protect and to Serve...

[Grand Vol]

A cop entering a premises without making his presence known. A yard is a premises. He didn't "knock" aka make his presence known prior to entering. The kid is on the deck playing. Fearful of this intruder that has entered without permission, he grabs the nearest gardening tool for defense and attacks out if fear.

Why is the cop there in the first place?

 

[Grand Vol]

I'll tell you what, here's the facts as they stand:

Fact: There was a missing child

Fact: Police were helping search for said child

Fact: Officer went into a backyard searching for said child

Fact: Officer ended up shooting a dog.

Fact: Grand Vol needs to die by fire for asking specific questions about said incident that some refuse to answer.

Fill in the blanks.

 

[hog88]

You'll get the outrage-itis that's swept a few folks here. Of course, they still have yet to present a valid argument to the contrary that the cop shouldn't have been there in the first place.

It's been my experience that one can't be too careful in that kind of situation, especially if said dog is coming at you in a menacing manner. It's one of those things that I can't say is wrong especially if the officer happens to be there on legitimate business. (I'm assuming in your case they were)

But once that dog gets a hold of anyone, it's not always easy to get them to stop unless they are trained to out on command. We go back to the discussion we were having the other day about pit bulls. Some could be friendly as the dickens, others not so much. So a little precaution would certainly be in order.

At the time my dogs were puppies, maybe 10lbs each. There was a wreck across the street from my house the night before (fatality) and a deputy stopped in to ask if we saw anything. Dogs came out of the garage barking, he reached for his sidearm, I told him not to do that and told the dogs to back in the garage. That's about the time he saw me with my hand on mine. It was actually funny, the look on his face I think he realized he just about f-ed up. We finished up our conversation and he left all good.


My dogs were barking as dogs do and his first reaction was to reach for his sidearm. That was stupid on his part.

 

[YorkVol]

Interesting debate, but for me, there are a couple of pieces of information missing from the story.

1. What is the proximity of the backyard in question to the house where the kid was thought to be missing? If they share a property line or are a few property lines away then I absolutely would want any searchers to trespass to find a 3 year old kid.

2. What is the history of the neighborhood with the dog and owner? If the dog was known to be aggressive and there was the potential that the kid had wandered into its territory, then again, I would hope the police would move quickly to intervene.

3. Did the mom report any concerns about her child encountering the dog?


If none of these are in play and the officer ended up encountering the dog in an area that it wasn't likely for the kid to be, then was surprised when the dog became aggressive and had to take drastic measures for his own safety, then he was wrong and should make amends.

If we lived in Japan, the police officer would personally appear before the dog's owner and formally apologize. The chief of the police department would also apologize and would pay restitution in an amount equal to the cost of a new dog. The owner would accept these actions and the issue would be closed.

In the USA, the owner will end up suing the department, accusing the officer of illegal trespass and misuse of a fire arm causing the death of his beloved dog. The officer will counter that he was legally bound to look for the child and the owner was at fault for harboring a dangerous and unpredictable beast. The court will find for one or the other, resulting in either no money for a new dog, or 10 times the amount of the cost of a dog. Both sides will incur court costs that will be passed on to the tax payers. Regardless of the outcome, neither side will really be satisfied, both sides will continue to distrust each other, perhaps even more than before and we'll continue to live in a divided community.

 

[Grand Vol]

My dogs were barking as dogs do and his first reaction was to reach for his sidearm. That was stupid on his part.

Most cops can tell you they don't fear many people, but they sure fear being attacked by a dog. We work around K-9s and see what kind of damage they are capable of so it's a natural reaction if they don't know which direction the threat may be coming from.

And yes, a dog is a pretty significant threat. Not saying your ten pound puppies are threats, just generic situation of hearing a dog bark and being unaware of the situation as it stands. Prudence is not a bad course of action.

 

[hog88]

I'll tell you what, here's the facts as they stand:

Fact: There was a missing child

Fact: Police were helping search for said child

Fact: Officer went into a backyard searching for said child

Fact: Officer ended up shooting a dog.

Fact: Grand Vol needs to die by fire for asking specific questions about said incident that some refuse to answer.

Fill in the blanks.

1. Sorry to hear that

2. As they should

3. Since I know nothing about this situation, all I will say is; unless the officer had a strong suspicion/probable cause to think the kid was on the property, he had no business entering the property without permission. If he did then its just a sad situation that still could have been handled better.

 

[hog88]

Most cops can tell you they don't fear many people, but they sure fear being attacked by a dog. We work around K-9s and see what kind of damage they are capable of so it's a natural reaction if they don't know which direction the threat may be coming from.

And yes, a dog is a pretty significant threat. Not saying your ten pound puppies are threats, just generic situation of hearing a dog bark and being unaware of the situation as it stands. Prudence is not a bad course of action.

I was standing right there, come on. I don't live in a trailer park infested with pit bulls. There was no need for him to reach for his pistol, heck he almost cleared leather.

Their tails were wagging, what cops need is training in identifying aggressive dog behavior.

 

[Grand Vol]

1. Sorry to hear that

2. As they should

3. Since I know nothing about this situation, all I will say is; unless the officer had a strong suspicion/probable cause to think the kid was on the property, he had no business entering the property without permission. If he did then its just a sad situation that still could have been handled better.

You've got kids, right? And you should know how far and specifically where you wouldn't expect they can get in a short amount of time.

It isn't unreasonable to think the kid might have been there. At three years old, they probably don't have the concept of property rights and can/will wander in and out of wherever their heart takes them. And if they get disoriented, the likelihood of them ending up just about anywhere goes up exponentially.

 

[SamRebel35]

Why is the cop there in the first place?

Searching for a missing 3 year old

 

[Grand Vol]

I was standing right there, come on. I don't live in a trailer park infested with pit bulls. There was no need for him to reach for his pistol, heck he almost cleared leather.

Their tails were wagging, what cops need is training in identifying aggressive dog behavior.

Hey, I don't know the full details. But identifying aggressive behavior in an animal that's known for unpredictability?

Like I said, a little prudence isn't a bad thing. You were there, it didn't go further, your dogs probably licked him afterwards didn't they?

 

[Grand Vol]

Searching for a missing 3 year old

And didn't announce himself?

You're reaching Sam.

 

[hog88]

You've got kids, right? And you should know how far and specifically where you wouldn't expect they can get in a short amount of time.

It isn't unreasonable to think the kid might have been there. At three years old, they probably don't have the concept of property rights and can/will wander in and out of wherever their heart takes them. And if they get disoriented, the likelihood of them ending up just about anywhere goes up exponentially.

As I said if the cop had a suspicion/probable cause to think the kid was there, by all means go in.

Again, I know nothing of this case, if it was a suspected abduction and they thought someone on that property had something to do with it, yep have at it. If it was just a kid that wondered off, what would it have hurt for the officer to knock on the door and ask? Get in touch with the property owner and ask to look around?

It sounds harsh but a missing kid doesn't trump property rights.

 

[hog88]

Hey, I don't know the full details. But identifying aggressive behavior in an animal that's known for unpredictability?

Like I said, a little prudence isn't a bad thing. You were there, it didn't go further, your dogs probably licked him afterwards didn't they?

Hint, if a dogs tail is wagging and ears are not pinned back or at alert, they are not being aggressive.

Lick a cop? I wouldn't let my dogs do that. I love my dogs.

 

[SamRebel35]

You do know the owner wasn't at home, right?

And again, we don't know exactly what level of caution he exercised.

I have no doubt he will be held into some sort of account.

1.Yes, I knew that, but I had forgotten temporarily.

2. He obviously didn't exercise enough caution to know there was a dog in the yard before entering.

3. That makes one of us.

 

[Grand Vol]

Hint, if a dogs tail is wagging and ears are not pinned back or at alert, they are not being aggressive.

Lick a cop? I wouldn't let my dogs do that. I love my dogs.

Nighttime?

Again, unpredictability. I had this idiot dog owner yesterday that almost get her little fuzzy dog eaten by my 75 lbs German Shepherd because little fuzzy dog went from sniffing mine to aggressive behavior in less than a second. And my pooch was ready to make that dog her fuzzy chew toy. And my dog typically loves other dogs.

Of course the idiot owner that kept letting her dog slip on the leash closer to mine as I'm trying to back mine off wasn't helping.

As I said if the cop had a suspicion/probable cause to think the kid was there, by all means go in.

Again, I know nothing of this case, if it was a suspected abduction and they thought someone on that property had something to do with it, yep have at it. If it was just a kid that wondered off, what would it have hurt for the officer to knock on the door and ask? Get in touch with the property owner and ask to look around?

It sounds harsh but a missing kid doesn't trump property rights.

The owner wasn't at home, that's a central fact to this incident. Some are saying the cops had no business going in the backyard to look for the kid.

 

[Grand Vol]

1.Yes, I knew that, but I had forgotten temporarily.

2. He obviously didn't exercise enough caution to know there was a dog in the yard before entering.

3. That makes one of us.

Dogs don't always announce their presence.

Again, facts that neither of us know.

So do you think the cop should be fired?

 

[SamRebel35]

And didn't announce himself?

You're reaching Sam.

That's not really a reach. If this cop had announced himself to this dog prior to entering the fence, supposing the dog really was any sort of a aggressive territorial defender, the dog definitely would have made it known before the cop set one foot in the fence perimeter.

 

[SamRebel35]

Dogs don't always announce their presence.

Again, facts that neither of us know.

So do you think the cop should be fired?

I don't know what should happen to him. He has shown that he lacks the cognitive capacity or alertness to make sure an area is clear of potential threats before entering. Sounds like he might be unfit for duty. Maybe he needs more training. Maybe he needs a desk job.

 

[Grand Vol]

That's not really a reach. If this cop had announced himself to this dog prior to entering the fence, supposing the dog really was any sort of a aggressive territorial defender, the dog definitely would have made it known before the cop set one foot in the fence perimeter.

It's reaching and your situation has a lot of holes in it as well as assumptions on trying to tie this in. Again, not all dogs announce their presence to the world until someone steps foot in the world.

 

[hog88]

Nighttime?

Again, unpredictability. I had this idiot dog owner yesterday that almost get her little fuzzy dog eaten by my 75 lbs German Shepherd because little fuzzy dog went from sniffing mine to aggressive behavior in less than a second. And my pooch was ready to make that dog her fuzzy chew toy. And my dog typically loves other dogs.

Of course the idiot owner that kept letting her dog slip on the leash closer to mine as I'm trying to back mine off wasn't helping.



The owner wasn't at home, that's a central fact to this incident. Some are saying the cops had no business going in the backyard to look for the kid.

Daytime.

I have no problem shooting a dog that needs to be shot, have killed several for running cattle. But you cant blame a dog for defending their turf.

Again, it's a delicate situation, and I know it sounds bad, but a missing kid does not trump property rights. If there was no suspicion of wrongdoing or imminent danger they should have contacted the owner prior to stepping foot on the property.

 

[Grand Vol]

I don't know what should happen to him. He has shown that he lacks the cognitive capacity or alertness to make sure an area is clear of potential threats before entering. Sounds like he might be unfit for duty. Maybe he needs more training. Maybe he needs a desk job.

So you know these items for a fact? Based on a YouTube video you have already determined everything there is to know about this case?

Walk a mile in my shoes and open your eyes. Not everything is as clear cut as you're making it out to be.

 

[Grand Vol]

Again, it's a delicate situation, and I know it sounds bad, but a missing kid does not trump property rights. If there was no suspicion of wrongdoing or imminent danger they should have contacted the owner prior to stepping foot on the property.

One tends to assume the worst in those situations. Missing child means you tend to suspect the worst which could be kidnapping, child injured and/or unconscious, or in imminent danger. And contacting said owner under these circumstances might not always be feasible.

In a perfect world where the police had a massive database of who owned what and good contact information I would agree. But it ain't always unicorns and rainbows. You know this.

 

[SamRebel35]

It's reaching and your situation has a lot of holes in it as well as assumptions on trying to tie this in. Again, not all dogs announce their presence to the world until someone steps foot in the world.

I am failing to come up with a plausible scenario in which a cop could have exercised extreme caution in entering a fenced in yard and still be able to put himself in a situation where it is kill or be killed (or maimed more likely).

 

[Grand Vol]

I am failing to come up with a plausible scenario in which a cop could have exercised extreme caution in entering a fenced in yard and still be able to put himself in a situation where it is kill or be killed (or maimed more likely).

Other than looking for a missing child which isn't your typical situation that would require "extreme caution" before checking a backyard?

 

[SamRebel35]

So you know these items for a fact? Based on a YouTube video you have already determined everything there is to know about this case?

Walk a mile in my shoes and open your eyes. Not everything is as clear cut as you're making it out to be.

Fact, the man was in this dog's yard having not been aware of dog's presence until it was too late to retreat leaving killing the dog as the only option (this is best case assumption in the cops favor). I don't care how you slice it, he should have known that dog was in the yard prior to being in a scenario of kill or be killed.