‘23 TN RB DeSean Bishop (Coastal Carolina commit)

GUNTERSVOL

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Don't disagree with that as coaches can view games instantly. The fixation with Cobb is that he was a local kid. Same was Warren, Lindsey, Sykes, Hawkins, Maples and Hodge most recently. We don't know how Cobb would have helped Tennessee or if would of had the same success like he did at Kentucky. Warren was a Freshman AA at FSU and could barely crack the field once he got here. But agree, now coaches can see film and CJH has been in the endzone watching games of Bishop. Believe he was at the Powell Karns game but don't hold me to that exact.
I just expect the staff to make a qualified decision after evaluation and I will live with it. I just think too much has been made on number of Carries and not number that ended with significant contact. He took a very low percentage of BAD hits that I saw on the broadcasts. Seemed to have great field vision and the coach must have green lighted use of sideline and going down to make more Carries rather than a couple of yards the preferred option. Not all Carries are created equal. Can’t avoid them all but you can minimize bad contact.
 
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BigorangeBoy

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Reminds me of the Orleans Darkwa scenario, had a very good HS career but got very little recruiting traction and went to Tulane. Nice career in the NFL, but in today's world he would have transferred from Tulane to one of the top-ranked programs. Same with Gibbs, although I think Gibbs was higher rated coming out of HS.
 

sjt18

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Not sure how 5 stars just get “missed”. If you’re talking about kids that get missed based on their future potential, sure… but I highly doubt any kid who is a physical freak/“day one starter” is just getting missed by everyone (recruiting services + coaches).
Then... you're simply wrong.

Cam Sutton came to mind immediately when I read this post. Freshman starter and a stud.

Emmanuel Mosely is another. He played early but was "missed" in part because he was a QB destined to play CB in college. Jaylen Wright played well for UT last year. His 6.85 ypc vs the SEC places him near the top of the conference. He played over a 2nd year former 4*.

So yeah... they routinely miss very talented players that contribute or start early.
 

jakez4ut

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Then... you're simply wrong.

Cam Sutton came to mind immediately when I read this post. Freshman starter and a stud.

Emmanuel Mosely is another. He played early but was "missed" in part because he was a QB destined to play CB in college. Jaylen Wright played well for UT last year. His 6.85 ypc vs the SEC places him near the top of the conference. He played over a 2nd year former 4*.

So yeah... they routinely miss very talented players that contribute or start early.
i agree with this in general, but i will say, at least in defense of his statement about 5*'s specifically, usually, the "dudes" that get in that top 30-40 nationally as high schoolers......they stand out. they look 'different', hence the rating. i don't know that you could go back and look at the recruiting profile or the video of any of those guys in high school and say "how'd they not rate him a 5*?"

i think in the cases of the guys you mentioned above, it's just more proof that no one really ever knows how a kid is going to develop (or not) over time. they may have certain physical attributes that lend themselves toward something later on, but have yet to show the ability to deserve being a top 30-40 guy..in high school.

it's a tale as old as time...but there's plenty of 5*'s that err'body wanted over the years that never amounted to anything and never sniffed the NFL as well.

so it goes both ways. there's not a staff out there that gest them all right. you just hope you're evaluations are right, more than wrong over as long a time line as you're allowed to coach at a particular program.

time will tell on CJH....no one is going to argue though, that in the SEC, you do need talent levels at least be relatively close to the rest of the competition. and you need it to get there faster than ever these days. so getting as many inside that top 250-300 as you can is, at least in my opinion, a hedged bet on doing that. you're, in theory, getting a more known/proven commodity with less questions about what you can/should expect from a player....and what you could/should expect earlier on in his career.
 
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GUNTERSVOL

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Then... you're simply wrong.

Cam Sutton came to mind immediately when I read this post. Freshman starter and a stud.

Emmanuel Mosely is another. He played early but was "missed" in part because he was a QB destined to play CB in college. Jaylen Wright played well for UT last year. His 6.85 ypc vs the SEC places him near the top of the conference. He played over a 2nd year former 4*.

So yeah... they routinely miss very talented players that contribute or start early.
I guess the question is have the players pretty much maxed out their physical development by their soph years or are do they still have room for growth and speed pickups. I have seen guys that started shaving in jr high lose ground to competition at the next levels. More guys across the line with equal or worse better skill sets. Not many Hershel’s and Bo’s out there where they were not caught. This kid sure looks like a gamer if his skills hold up. This year should tell us a lot with his blocking pretty much gone and the target he will have on his back.
 

sjt18

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i agree with this in general, but i will say, at least in defense of his statement about 5*'s specifically, usually, the "dudes" that get in that top 30-40 nationally as high schoolers......they stand out. they look 'different', hence the rating. i don't know that you could go back and look at the recruiting profile or the video of any of those guys in high school and say "how'd they not rate him a 5*?"

i think in the cases of the guys you mentioned above, it's just more proof that no one really ever knows how a kid is going to develop (or not) over time. they may have certain physical attributes that lend themselves toward something later on, but have yet to show the ability to deserve being a top 30-40 guy..in high school.

it's a tale as old as time...but there's plenty of 5*'s that err'body wanted over the years that never amounted to anything and never sniffed the NFL as well.

so it goes both ways. there's not a staff out there that gest them all right. you just hope you're evaluations are right, more than wrong over as long a time line as you're allowed to coach at a particular program.

time will tell on CJH....no one is going to argue though, that in the SEC, you do need talent levels at least be relatively close to the rest of the competition. and you need it to get there faster than ever these days. so getting as many inside that top 250-300 as you can is, at least in my opinion, a hedged bet on doing that. you're, in theory, getting a more known/proven commodity with less questions about what you can/should expect from a player....and what you could/should expect earlier on in his career.
I think a lot of people cannot get past being black/white and then defensive about the recruiting site rankings.

Generally speaking, they're fairly accurate about the guys they slap a 4 or 5 star ranking on. I don't dispute that. I don't think you can. So a team that signs a lot of 4/5* players will have some busts but on average (including some underrated 3*) added talent to their roster.

My dispute is with those who against the facts believe the recruiting services find all of the talented players or even immediate contributors. It isn't possible for them to do... and they by design don't even try. They artificially limit the number of 4/5* ratings they hand out. If they didn't, their "accuracy" would drop significantly.
 
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Mr French

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Coaches miss plenty of guys….. Randall Cobb is a prime example….. rated exactly like this kid….. we tried getting involved late but couldn’t sway him away from kentucky…. How much film do you think staffs outside the state of Tennessee have spent on Karns High school?
Not what happened. Kentucky gave him a shot at qb we didnt.
 

jakez4ut

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I think a lot of people cannot get past being black/white and then defensive about the recruiting site rankings.

Generally speaking, they're fairly accurate about the guys they slap a 4 or 5 star ranking on. I don't dispute that. I don't think you can. So a team that signs a lot of 4/5* players will have some busts but on average (including some underrated 3*) added talent to their roster.

My dispute is with those who against the facts believe the recruiting services find all of the talented players or even immediate contributors. It isn't possible for them to do... and they by design don't even try. They artificially limit the number of 4/5* ratings they hand out. If they didn't, their "accuracy" would drop significantly.
yep, and some of that goes back to the other post i had in this thread about the visibility of players that camp etc...you get more exposure, against 'known' competition, and ratings get handed out. and those kids are the ones that typically continue to get attention in their jr/sr years.

and i agree with you on not even trying, there's literally no way to know how a kid will develop (or not in the case of the 5* bust) thru their college career, or what being in an environment of equally or more talented players will do for a kid's development. some thrive, some you find out have already hit their ceiling. you can't project that at 100% accuracy, even for the ones you do get rated and evaluated. forget about the ones you never even really heard of and just give a 2 or 3* rating late in their HS career.

i'm all for hedging the bet as much as possible--gimme all the top 250 kids we can get--,but as i stated earlier, but i just can't write someone off because they're not either. it just falls in the "tbd" camp....like they all do for the most part.
 
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reVOLution33

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Coaches miss plenty of guys….. Randall Cobb is a prime example….. rated exactly like this kid….. we tried getting involved late but couldn’t sway him away from kentucky…. How much film do you think staffs outside the state of Tennessee have spent on Karns High school?
Not entirely correct. We offered him as a wide receiver but he wanted to be a QB. So we cooled on him. Kentucky gave him the offer at QB then at the last second we tried to give him the opportunity to play QB but at that point it was to late.
 

T2P_Priceless

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Yes but Randall Cobb wasn’t some day one starter physical freak that people just missed. He was developed into what he was. That’s always going to be hard to prevent. Getting tons of 3 stars is just going to see the UF/Bama/UGA losing streaks extended. It’s about the Jimmie’s and the Joes.
I agree, can’t load up on 3 stars. But this one I truly feel is vastly underrated
 

T2P_Priceless

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It’s not unheard of. I recently got caught in the rabbit hole of YouTube and watched a “whatever happened to…” video profiling a high school kid that was supposed to be the next marshawn lynch. Devonte Lee. I looked him up and he was something like the 30th ranked player in his state despite rushing for almost 7k yards in three years and 90 rushing touchdowns.

Gaudy HS stats doesn’t guarantee success at the next level. Isn’t it the running joke in this thread that his coach is running the tread off his tires?


And while Karns isn’t a hot bed where a lot of schools likely focus - the Knoxville area and East Tennessee area is. And Karns plays a bunch of those schools. So schools have seen film of him running the ball.

It’s comical the mental gymnastics people go through discredit rankings or justify lack of offers when it looks like we’re gonna land a lowly ranked or poorly offered kid.

I’m as die hard a Tennessee fan as you’ll find. And it’s forever looked like we would be landing Bishop. His recruiting profile has baffled me because of his gaudy stats and, while I’m no scout, his hudl looks good.

But the reality is the recruiting services (and we all have always claimed 247 is the most reliable) don’t currently think he’s anything special. Not many schools are pursuing him either.

Those are the indicators we as fans have to rely on, primarily. None of us are scouts. And we can have optimism in our coaching staff and their ability to find diamonds in the rough but the teams were trying to catch - Georgia, Clemson, Alabama, Ohio State, etc…. none of them are built off the backs of low-80s ranked players.

Hate on me and dismiss this take all you want but it’s true.

That’s all. Don’t care to argue anymore. I’d love nothing more than for Spillman and if we land Bishop to be hometown heroes and play key roles in big games for us. I just want to be good again. To get back to the Vols I took for granted as a teenager/early 20 something.
.
I’m not sold on Spillman but I think as the season wanes on you’ll see Bishop bumped to 4* just like Justin Williams last year

We have to be early on these guys or they’ll go elsewhere. If he doesn’t have a good senior year and/or regresses they can always pull the offer
 

OrangeMoundTNVol

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It’s not unheard of. I recently got caught in the rabbit hole of YouTube and watched a “whatever happened to…” video profiling a high school kid that was supposed to be the next marshawn lynch. Devonte Lee. I looked him up and he was something like the 30th ranked player in his state despite rushing for almost 7k yards in three years and 90 rushing touchdowns.

Gaudy HS stats doesn’t guarantee success at the next level. Isn’t it the running joke in this thread that his coach is running the tread off his tires?


And while Karns isn’t a hot bed where a lot of schools likely focus - the Knoxville area and East Tennessee area is. And Karns plays a bunch of those schools. So schools have seen film of him running the ball.

It’s comical the mental gymnastics people go through discredit rankings or justify lack of offers when it looks like we’re gonna land a lowly ranked or poorly offered kid.

I’m as die hard a Tennessee fan as you’ll find. And it’s forever looked like we would be landing Bishop. His recruiting profile has baffled me because of his gaudy stats and, while I’m no scout, his hudl looks good.

But the reality is the recruiting services (and we all have always claimed 247 is the most reliable) don’t currently think he’s anything special. Not many schools are pursuing him either.

Those are the indicators we as fans have to rely on, primarily. None of us are scouts. And we can have optimism in our coaching staff and their ability to find diamonds in the rough but the teams were trying to catch - Georgia, Clemson, Alabama, Ohio State, etc…. none of them are built off the backs of low-80s ranked players.

Hate on me and dismiss this take all you want but it’s true.

That’s all. Don’t care to argue anymore. I’d love nothing more than for Spillman and if we land Bishop to be hometown heroes and play key roles in big games for us. I just want to be good again. To get back to the Vols I took for granted as a teenager/early 20 something.
I definitely agree with you but I judge this particular kid off of the eye ball test. I love his frame and quick twitch. I remember before his jr year the VQ guys i believe were hyping him up and he completely went off. I'm from Memphis so I know nothing about East TN football outside of all the battles Maryville and Melrose used to have. This is my first time hearing of Karns, just like when Big Walt transferred to Powell was my first hearing of them. So a hometown hero for me would be a guy like Jabari Small from Memphis, who this guy actually reminds me of. Someone who can make a defender miss in the hole, and on the 2nd/3rd level.

We get him cool, if we don't that's also cool. Just have a hard time seeing 40 TN kids better than this guy, and they had a even harder time getting him on the ground apparently. I will say this, let him go to Purdue and you risk him being another Walker type kid from Michigan State who had a similar ranking out of Tennessee.
 

T2P_Priceless

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This argument never ends. Some highly rated players bust and some lower rated players blow up. The ratings that matter are overall and by end of signing day. The services get input from schools throughout the cycle.

One thing that is absolutely undisputed (#s don’t lie) is that the teams usually finish in standings based on there overall recruiting rating roster (all years on roster).
 

onevol74

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Yes but Randall Cobb wasn’t some day one starter physical freak that people just missed. He was developed into what he was. That’s always going to be hard to prevent. Getting tons of 3 stars is just going to see the UF/Bama/UGA losing streaks extended. It’s about the Jimmie’s and the Joes.
How do you know this kid is a 3 star? He has another season. If rating services were perfect they would not keep adjusting or updating their ratings. We all know that they are biased in which schools offer them. It is funny to me that Heupel offers a kid and he is a 2 or 3 star and a couple months later Bama or UGA offers and suddenly he becomes a high 4 star.

Most of us know as much as these services know and we still have our $9.95 in our hip pocket.
 

bigl3327

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Not sure how 5 stars just get “missed”. If you’re talking about kids that get missed based on their future potential, sure… but I highly doubt any kid who is a physical freak/“day one starter” is just getting missed by everyone (recruiting services + coaches).
It can easily happen even with all the technology we have today. A kid could be from a little country town with limited resources. His coach and all his teammates have little to no talent. No one posts his highlights on Hudl. His team never makes the playoffs, where he might get seen when coaches are evaluating someone else. It definitely happens, and some of these guys never end up playing college ball.
 

orangelo

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Reminds me of the Orleans Darkwa scenario, had a very good HS career but got very little recruiting traction and went to Tulane. Nice career in the NFL, but in today's world he would have transferred from Tulane to one of the top-ranked programs. Same with Gibbs, although I think Gibbs was higher rated coming out of HS.
Patrick Willis comes to mind with me. He was a wiff by a lot of people. Honestly Ole Miss was his highest profile offer and at time he got there they weren’t very good.
 

RhodesVol

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Patrick Willis comes to mind with me. He was a wiff by a lot of people. Honestly Ole Miss was his highest profile offer and at time he got there they weren’t very good.
Willis also played low A ball at a tiny school. He was certainly a miss, but I also don’t remember what LB’s we brought in that year. I anticipate we did just fine, but would have loved to have him in Orange, as well.
 

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