$, timing, and Holly

#1

madtownvol

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#1
Apologies for starting a new thread but, perhaps, some consideration of financial incentives, might be useful. From a recent story on ESPN:

"Warlick received a three-year contract extension and a $25,000 raise last summer that increased her salary to $690,000, which ranks in the middle of the pack among SEC coaches. If Tennessee fired Warlick without cause any time before March 31, 2020, the school would owe her one-third of the money she would have earned up until the contract's April 30, 2022, expiration date."

LVs dealing with skid

So, it would cost the UTAD about $600, 000 or so to release Holly at the end of this season (or before).

While that amount would not break the proverbial bank, it is a big chunk of change for a sport that does not generate a lot of revenue on its own.

I have been saying for a while that Holly's contract extension effectively gave her a two year window to prove she could get the LVs back in the top tier. I was not aware of the financial terms but it seems that the two year window is built into the severance package.

For all the folks, yapping about Fulmer's lack of fortitude and so on, this arrangement makes sense. Per last season, when the extension was granted, Holly still had a high winning percentage and she had her second strong recruiting class coming in. Despite slippage in the LVs rankings, firing her would have been a PR disaster for UTAD and a major headache for a new AD who had instability in the football program.

While some seem to think that hiring a new coach, who can lead the program to glory, is simple as saying "Kara Lawson" (who would be a total novice and would have to be willing to exit a promising broadcasting career) or Jeff Waltz (who may have strong ties to his current institution and would likely get a major counter offer to stay put) or other myriad names, coaching searches and hires are complicated, drawn out affairs.

If the LVs don't turn things around in a big way this season, I suspect that behind-the-scenes contacts with prospective replacements would begin and that Holly would opt to "retire" at the end of the 2020 season.

If the wheels totally came off and the LVs did not make the NCAA this season, then such a debacle might force a change sooner that later. Barring that, waiting a year saves UTAD a bunch of $ and lets them get a head start on identifying a new coach.

And the UTAD can say that they gave Holly every possible change to assuage a national media that might profess outrage that a coach with a winning record and long term loyalty to the program has been cast aside. For the record, I think there would be much less of that national media reaction this season than last year but the financial costs still point to next year as the change point.

So, all those in the "fire Holly right now" camp might save a few points on their blood pressure reading and accept that a coaching change before next year (like it or not) is unlikely.

GO LVS: I look forward to ya'll storming all over BAMA!
 
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#2

Bigorangefaninga

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#2
Apologies for starting a new thread but, perhaps, some consideration of financial incentives, might be useful. From a recent story on ESPN:

"Warlick received a three-year contract extension and a $25,000 raise last summer that increased her salary to $690,000, which ranks in the middle of the pack among SEC coaches. If Tennessee fired Warlick without cause any time before March 31, 2020, the school would owe her one-third of the money she would have earned up until the contract's April 30, 2022, expiration date."

LVs dealing with skid

So, it would cost the UTAD about $600, 000 or so to release Holly at the end of this season (or before).

While that amount would not break the proverbial bank, it is a big chunk of change for a sport that does not generate a lot of revenue on its own.

I have been saying for a while that Holly's contract extension effectively gave her a two year window to prove she could get the LVs back in the top tier. I was not aware of the financial terms but it seems that the two year window is built into the severance package.

For all the folks, yapping about Fulmer's lack of fortitude and so on, this arrangement makes sense. Per last season, when the extension was granted, Holly still had a high winning percentage and she had her second strong recruiting class coming in. Despite slippage in the LVs rankings, firing her would have been a PR disaster for UTAD and a major headache for a new AD who had instability in the football program.

While some seem to think that hiring a new coach, who can lead the program to glory, is simple as saying "Kara Lawson" (who would be a total novice and would have to be willing to exit a promising broadcasting career) or Jeff Waltz (who may have strong ties to his current institution and would likely get a major counter offer to stay put) or other myriad names, coaching searches and hires are complicated, drawn out affairs.

If the LVs don't turn things around in a big way this season, I suspect that behind-the-scenes contacts with prospective replacements would begin and that Holly would opt to "retire" at the end of the 2020 season.

If the wheels totally came off and the LVs did not make the NCAA this season, then such a debacle might force a change sooner that later. Barring that, waiting a year saves UTAD a bunch of $ and lets them get a head start on identifying a new coach.

And the UTAD can say that they gave Holly every possible change to assuage a national media that might profess outrage that a coach with a winning record and long term loyalty to the program has been cast aside. For the record, I think there would be much less of that national media reaction this season than last year but the financial costs still point to next year as the change point.

So, all those in the "fire Holly right now" camp might save a few points on their blood pressure reading and accept that a coaching change before next year (like it or not) is unlikely.

GO LVS: I look forward to ya'll storming all over BAMA!
The athletic department last year and the year before even with sucky football made more profit compared to Bama, they were within past 2 years the number 1 most profitable athletic department in the country, heck the 8-9 million we are paying Botch Jones not to coach is a drop in the bucket compared to what the AD makes. I mean if that 600K or even 1.2 million was so much to keep her just don’t even worry about the Lady Vols at all and just let them become ODU and La Tech and not put money into them. I mean they haven’t made a profit for the school in a long time and women’s sports don’t make a profit to begin with, so if you have them they mine as well be good so you have less monetary losses for them. No excuse to keep her around and not pay any coach you want 2.5 million to come and see the place at around 13-14k every game and hanging some banners! Ms State did it and they sucked forever but got tired and threw some money at the program. As I was always taught, if you are going to do it do it right, if not don’t do it at all!
 
#4

madtownvol

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#4
The athletic department last year and the year before even with sucky football made more profit compared to Bama, they were within past 2 years the number 1 most profitable athletic department in the country, heck the 8-9 million we are paying Botch Jones not to coach is a drop in the bucket compared to what the AD makes. I mean if that 600K or even 1.2 million was so much to keep her just don’t even worry about the Lady Vols at all and just let them become ODU and La Tech and not put money into them. I mean they haven’t made a profit for the school in a long time and women’s sports don’t make a profit to begin with, so if you have them they mine as well be good so you have less monetary losses for them. No excuse to keep her around and not pay any coach you want 2.5 million to come and see the place at around 13-14k every game and hanging some banners! Ms State did it and they sucked forever but got tired and threw some money at the program. As I was always taught, if you are going to do it do it right, if not don’t do it at all!
The budget is actually little tighter. UTAD made 10 million in profit last year but almost all of that has been invested in facility improvements. And LVs posted a 2 million loss last season.
 
#6
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#6
The budget is actually little tighter. UTAD made 10 million in profit last year but almost all of that has been invested in facility improvements. And LVs posted a 2 million loss last season.
So her product was so bad it lost money but somehow we decided to buy more of it?

When did Hamilton become AD?
 
#7

Bigorangefaninga

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#7
The budget is actually little tighter. UTAD made 10 million in profit last year but almost all of that has been invested in facility improvements. And LVs posted a 2 million loss last season.
Hahaha, yeah right. I am guessing you go by what they post on their site itself. First the payment of 600K would be made in installments and not right away, also we have boosters that could stroke that check in 5 seconds and never notice it was gone, AND hopefully Botch actually moves up into an actual on field position this year with Bama and that also offsets his buyout per his clause. He made 35K this year and I am pretty sure if moved up it would be more in the at least 100K, also payments made in installments. They easily have the money, I just don’t think Phil has the guts!
 
#8
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#8
Hahaha, yeah right. I am guessing you go by what they post on their site itself. First the payment of 600K would be made in installments and not right away, also we have boosters that could stroke that check in 5 seconds and never notice it was gone, AND hopefully Botch actually moves up into an actual on field position this year with Bama and that also offsets his buyout per his clause. He made 35K this year and I am pretty sure if moved up it would be more in the at least 100K, also payments made in installments. They easily have the money, I just don’t think Phil has the guts!
Bingo. He won’t do it because of the connection to Pat. That has always been my stance on it
 
#10

madtownvol

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#10
Hahaha, yeah right. I am guessing you go by what they post on their site itself. First the payment of 600K would be made in installments and not right away, also we have boosters that could stroke that check in 5 seconds and never notice it was gone, AND hopefully Botch actually moves up into an actual on field position this year with Bama and that also offsets his buyout per his clause. He made 35K this year and I am pretty sure if moved up it would be more in the at least 100K, also payments made in installments. They easily have the money, I just don’t think Phil has the guts!
Per my post, her buy-out clause is a secondary consideration but I think it set the terms of politely and diplomatically signalling, that HW, you are on a two year probationary period.

I think the primary consideration is that Fulmer wants to say that Holly had every chance to succeed but it is now time to move in a direction (per next year) or asking Holly to gracefully bow out. I call that PR management; you call it a lack of guts. What of consequence changes in either case? The signs are that Holly, again barring a complete meltdown of the program, is not likely to be fired at the end of this year.

Also, people assume that rich folks are willing to write checks at the drop of a hat. I can assure you that is not the case. managing donor relationships is a big concern of University and athletic departments. You don't want tap those "wells" more than you have to. Here I am just conjecturing but I would bet a lot of those who are LV supporters ($$$$) are also likely to be Pat Summitt loyalists and are probably keen to give Holly every possible chance. Maybe Phil knows a coaching change would alienate the existing LV donor base if not handle with a great deal of patience.

And don't shoot, I am just the messenger.
 
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#11

VolAmerican

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#11
Bingo. He won’t do it because of the connection to Pat. That has always been my stance on it
Maybe so, but I bet with enough pressure he might. Our women's basketball program is not comparable to say Alabama or some other program where it just exists. We have 8 titles and have been a regular in the NCAA tourney over a 40-45 year span. If this season implodes and seats are empty, revenue is lousy, and boosters/fans are frustrated, he will feel the pressure to do something. It took the football season imploding before they made a move with Butch. I never thought I would say this, but the LV's are 1-3 in the conference play with some challenging games ahead. I hope they can turn it around, but right now I don't see a magic wand capable.
 
#12

JohnWardForever

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#12
This Lady Vol Funk puts a damper on the ENTIRE University; Not just Basketball or athletics. A STENCH permeates throughout any organization. Right now, only CRB's BB Vols provide some pleasure on Rocky Top. While helpful, It's not enough! UT needs to produce Winners; and set a good example by winning at everything. Winning at Sports creates a Positive environment and encourages winning in every facet.
 
#13

Bigorangefaninga

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#13
Per my post, her buy-out clause is a secondary consideration but I think it set the terms of politely and diplomatically signalling, that HW, you are on a two year probationary period.

I think the primary consideration is that Fulmer wants to say that Holly had every chance to succeed but it is now time to move in a direction (per next year) or asking Holly to gracefully bow out. I call that PR management; you call it a lack of guts. What of consequence changes in either case? The signs are that Holly, again barring a complete meltdown of the program, is not likely to be fired at the end of this year.

Also, people assume that rich folks are willing to write checks at the drop of a hat. I can assure you that is not the case. managing donor relationships is a big concern of University and athletic departments. You don't want tap those "wells" more than you have to. Here I am just conjecturing but I would bet a lot of those who are LV supporters ($$$$) are also likely to be Pat Summitt loyalists and are probably keen to give Holly every possible chance. Maybe Phil knows a coaching change would alienate the existing LV donor base if not handle with a great deal of patience.

And don't shoot, I am just the messenger.
She has had how many years again to prove herself? I mean it’s very easy to give the impression we don’t give a crap about women’s basketball and maybe that is it, because if this had been football where the start was ok and downhill from that point or Barnes came in and did this same thing with a program that really hasn’t ever been relevant in men’s basketball they would have been gone already! Not year 7 or 8 or 9 as they would have never made it that long. She would be better off to go in and settle a buyout and leave on her own, but her love of the university I guess isn’t as much as the love of money is! Because even she cannot be gone deaf or ego driven enough to think she can get it done while proving the past few years she cannot!
 
#15

madtownvol

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#15
She has had how many years again to prove herself? I mean it’s very easy to give the impression we don’t give a crap about women’s basketball and maybe that is it, because if this had been football where the start was ok and downhill from that point or Barnes came in and did this same thing with a program that really hasn’t ever been relevant in men’s basketball they would have been gone already! Not year 7 or 8 or 9 as they would have never made it that long. She would be better off to go in and settle a buyout and leave on her own, but her love of the university I guess isn’t as much as the love of money is! Because even she cannot be gone deaf or ego driven enough to think she can get it done while proving the past few years she cannot!
Wade Houston had 5 seasons; Buzz Peterson had 4 seasons and neither ever made it to the NCAA tournament. Holly has 3 elite 8s and 3 SEC titles. Yes, much of that success occurred in her first 4 years but the LVs were still 25-8 last season (disappointing given the expectations but still far better than what Houston, Peterson or 11 year coach Don DeVoe ever accomplished). I am not saying that Holly is the greatest coach in the world but the facts don't quite match your assessment of what the UT men's b-ball program would tolerate.
 
#16

glv98

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#16
IMO there's a myth that there's this large contingent of embattled "blue hairs", self-appointed keepers of the Pat flame, that the AD has to tiptoe around lest they feel violated. In my real life, there are WAY more LV fans who definitely feel its past time to make a change. In fact, I find the split about like this board, about 95% for a new coach and 5% Holly Apologists. I realize some of the older, long time fans who might be against a coaching change are also big donors, but those dollars are small potatoes compared to what's happening to the LV brand.

Even the bluest of the hairs would have a hard time arguing that 3/4 of a decade is "not enough time". Holly's 60, she's been doing this for 35 years. A couple of hundred games into her current role. No remotely reasonable person could feel we do not have a sufficient sample of her abilities. It's quite a tribute to Pat, and I suspect only because of her incredible legacy, that HW's been kept around this long.

Most importantly, I so agree with the poster upthread who said we have to remove the LV "funk" we are currently mired in. It isn't fair to the elite student athletes (who miraculously continue to come here) to not get the development and teaching they deserve. Name the last HW coached player who left here a markedly better player than she arrived? Yeah, me neither. No one's having fun, ya'll see Rennia Davis lately? Two more years is way too long to wait to open the windows and let some fresh air in.
 
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#17

Bigorangefaninga

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#17
Wade Houston had 5 seasons; Buzz Peterson had 4 seasons and neither ever made it to the NCAA tournament. Holly has 3 elite 8s and 3 SEC titles. Yes, much of that success occurred in her first 4 years but the LVs were still 25-8 last season (disappointing given the expectations but still far better than what Houston, Peterson or 11 year coach Don DeVoe ever accomplished). I am not saying that Holly is the greatest coach in the world but the facts don't quite match your assessment of what the UT men's b-ball program would tolerate.
This is the Lady Vols not UT men’s basketball and guess what UT men’s have never been to a final four OR won a NC! However they have won decent last few years and I would bet if Barnes was sucking it up like Holly he would be gone! I mean Lady Vols are Duke, UNC, Kentucky. Holly has 7 seasons now at UT, so you think any of those Blue Bloods would keep a coach 7 seasons without winning a NC?
 
#18

glv98

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#18
Interesting about Holly's overall record. If that's all you knew about the whole situation we might appear a touch unappreciative. But guys, you kind of had to be here. And if you are here, its kind of undeniable. See above, the last 3 or 4 seasons have been a mire of underachievement, both team and individual.

It could be argued that the record was better at the beginning of HW's tenure because of how much of "Pat" was still around the program. And they were Pat's players. Now they're all Holly's players and we see the result. Ironic if following the legend was actually good for HW.
 
#19

teacherdean

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#19
Apologies for starting a new thread but, perhaps, some consideration of financial incentives, might be useful. From a recent story on ESPN:

"Warlick received a three-year contract extension and a $25,000 raise last summer that increased her salary to $690,000, which ranks in the middle of the pack among SEC coaches. If Tennessee fired Warlick without cause any time before March 31, 2020, the school would owe her one-third of the money she would have earned up until the contract's April 30, 2022, expiration date."

LVs dealing with skid

So, it would cost the UTAD about $600, 000 or so to release Holly at the end of this season (or before).

While that amount would not break the proverbial bank, it is a big chunk of change for a sport that does not generate a lot of revenue on its own.

I have been saying for a while that Holly's contract extension effectively gave her a two year window to prove she could get the LVs back in the top tier. I was not aware of the financial terms but it seems that the two year window is built into the severance package.

For all the folks, yapping about Fulmer's lack of fortitude and so on, this arrangement makes sense. Per last season, when the extension was granted, Holly still had a high winning percentage and she had her second strong recruiting class coming in. Despite slippage in the LVs rankings, firing her would have been a PR disaster for UTAD and a major headache for a new AD who had instability in the football program.

While some seem to think that hiring a new coach, who can lead the program to glory, is simple as saying "Kara Lawson" (who would be a total novice and would have to be willing to exit a promising broadcasting career) or Jeff Waltz (who may have strong ties to his current institution and would likely get a major counter offer to stay put) or other myriad names, coaching searches and hires are complicated, drawn out affairs.

If the LVs don't turn things around in a big way this season, I suspect that behind-the-scenes contacts with prospective replacements would begin and that Holly would opt to "retire" at the end of the 2020 season.

If the wheels totally came off and the LVs did not make the NCAA this season, then such a debacle might force a change sooner that later. Barring that, waiting a year saves UTAD a bunch of $ and lets them get a head start on identifying a new coach.

And the UTAD can say that they gave Holly every possible change to assuage a national media that might profess outrage that a coach with a winning record and long term loyalty to the program has been cast aside. For the record, I think there would be much less of that national media reaction this season than last year but the financial costs still point to next year as the change point.

So, all those in the "fire Holly right now" camp might save a few points on their blood pressure reading and accept that a coaching change before next year (like it or not) is unlikely.

GO LVS: I look forward to ya'll storming all over BAMA!
There might be an national outcry if Holly were fired, however, I doubt that will happen. I really think the only outcray would be from Lady Vol Holly sympathizer. I would love to see Holly turn this program around, however, the program seems to recruit A1 talent but somehow never play up to its potential.
 
#20

Volfan2012

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#20
All she has to do is rack up 20 wins and get to the NCAA Tourney then we'll move on like nothing bad happened this season. There is plenty of evidence that paying 690 grand for a women's basketball coach is really ideal for the AD office. To get fired will take a total collapse and missing the tourney JMO.
 
#23

BreatheUT

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#23
Lots of good posts in this thread. Good arguments and counter arguments. I will say this though, a program that has $2M in losses should be allowed to go on European summer tours and they are terrible and attendance is falling.
 
#24

LA Vol

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#24
Pat loyalists and Holly loyalists aren't the same. Pat would never tolerate the undisciplined, inconsistent play and lack of toughness of the past few LVs teams. She would have made the changes she thought necessary for the good of the team. Nobody was above the team in Pat's mind. Nobody should be above it now.
 
#25

lvocd

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#25
Apologies for starting a new thread but, perhaps, some consideration of financial incentives, might be useful. From a recent story on ESPN:

"Warlick received a three-year contract extension and a $25,000 raise last summer that increased her salary to $690,000, which ranks in the middle of the pack among SEC coaches. If Tennessee fired Warlick without cause any time before March 31, 2020, the school would owe her one-third of the money she would have earned up until the contract's April 30, 2022, expiration date."

LVs dealing with skid

So, it would cost the UTAD about $600, 000 or so to release Holly at the end of this season (or before).

While that amount would not break the proverbial bank, it is a big chunk of change for a sport that does not generate a lot of revenue on its own.

I have been saying for a while that Holly's contract extension effectively gave her a two year window to prove she could get the LVs back in the top tier. I was not aware of the financial terms but it seems that the two year window is built into the severance package.

For all the folks, yapping about Fulmer's lack of fortitude and so on, this arrangement makes sense. Per last season, when the extension was granted, Holly still had a high winning percentage and she had her second strong recruiting class coming in. Despite slippage in the LVs rankings, firing her would have been a PR disaster for UTAD and a major headache for a new AD who had instability in the football program.

While some seem to think that hiring a new coach, who can lead the program to glory, is simple as saying "Kara Lawson" (who would be a total novice and would have to be willing to exit a promising broadcasting career) or Jeff Waltz (who may have strong ties to his current institution and would likely get a major counter offer to stay put) or other myriad names, coaching searches and hires are complicated, drawn out affairs.

If the LVs don't turn things around in a big way this season, I suspect that behind-the-scenes contacts with prospective replacements would begin and that Holly would opt to "retire" at the end of the 2020 season.

If the wheels totally came off and the LVs did not make the NCAA this season, then such a debacle might force a change sooner that later. Barring that, waiting a year saves UTAD a bunch of $ and lets them get a head start on identifying a new coach.

And the UTAD can say that they gave Holly every possible change to assuage a national media that might profess outrage that a coach with a winning record and long term loyalty to the program has been cast aside. For the record, I think there would be much less of that national media reaction this season than last year but the financial costs still point to next year as the change point.

So, all those in the "fire Holly right now" camp might save a few points on their blood pressure reading and accept that a coaching change before next year (like it or not) is unlikely.

GO LVS: I look forward to ya'll storming all over BAMA!

Terrific post, madtown.
I want to clarify my thoughts about Kara Lawson taking over. What I’m suggesting is that IF there was a mid-season emergency firing, and IF the university wanted to hire someone in a temporary capacity that could jolt the team into better play to finishout the season well enough to at least make the Tourney, then I’d trust Lawson to be able to get that done.

UT couldn’t get another top coach to leave their program mid-season (Duh! Who’d even ASK such a ridiculous thing!), but ESPN might let Kara go on leave for three months to do a mission of mercy for her alma mater.

She could go right back to her broadcasting career after a sabbatical and after the season is over.
 
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